Impact of tweeners

[AboveLegit]

A tweener is a player that is built for one position (usually a player who is built like the prototypical small forward) but has the skill set of another position (usually a prototypical power forward) but has trouble playing both positions.

 

In the Raptors draft anticipation thread, BFT expressed his disinterest in tweeners, so it got me thinking, would you support your team drafting or trading for one? Do you think they bring more positives to a team than negatives?

[Flash]

Tweeners are usually much more miss than hit. Unless it were for like Steph Curry or Monta Ellis I don't think I'd want a tweener on my team.

[AboveLegit]

Tweeners are usually much more miss than hit. Unless it were for like Steph Curry or Monta Ellis I don't think I'd want a tweener on my team.

Meh, I don't really consider Steph Curry a tweener. He's a very solid playmaker and doesn't take a ton of shots a game. I do agree with the rest of your post though.

[Dash]

I HATE tweeners, the moment I read that a prospect is one in their scouting reports I immediately become disinterested and close out the page. I wouldn't be opposed if the player was oozing of potential like Jan Vesely though but still not a big fan.

[Real Deal]

Too much uncertainty. There are far many more that never pan out, or that are complete trash on one end of the court.

 

I mean, I'm not going to complain about someone like Charles Barkley, of course, even though he never played defense...but when I look at someone like Luther Head, I'm reminded that tweeners are big risks in the draft, and I would rather go with the sure bet at that particular position.

 

Give me a 6-3 player that can run the point, and I'll call him a point guard, and I won't have to consider playing him at the two and watching him get destroyed.

 

I think people mix the versatile players up with the tweeners, though. To me, a tweener is a fit at one position, with the size at another. The Head example is good...he's a two-guard, but he's too short and doesn't have the body mass to make up for it. LeBron James is considered a tweener by some, which seems ridiculous to me because he's just a versatile player that can play multiple positions well, much like Odom.

 

I guess I take the risk if it's Derrick Williams (seems like this is why the topic was created, lol), but that's only because of how well he plays, and I feel like he's a true SF to begin with, once he's in a bigger and badder pool of players.

[The Regime]

Tweeners are good because of their versatility, and I personally likes a guy who can play multiple positions because it makes it tough for opposing teams to defend him. Guys like Lamar Odom, Rashard Lewis, Paul Millsap, Michael Beasley, and Jeff Green all have had or are having productive careers. It's a risk worth taking in my opinion.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Confidence248

[Guru]

I agree that it is hit or miss with tweeners. (And that most of the time it is a miss) But you can't eliminate a prospect just because there he is a tweener imo. There have been some great tweeners in the NBA.

PG/SG - Allen Iverson, Baron Davis, Monta Ellis etc.

SF/PF - Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Lamar Odom, Charles Barkley etc.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Guru

[Built Ford Tough]

I agree that it is hit or miss with tweeners. (And that most of the time it is a miss) But you can't eliminate a prospect just because there he is a tweener imo. There have been some great tweeners in the NBA.

PG/SG - Allen Iverson, Baron Davis, Monta Ellis etc.

SF/PF - Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Lamar Odom, Charles Barkley etc.

 

Dirk, Odom and Garnett aren't tweeners. They are just versatile big men. There is a difference.

 

I wouldn't call Baron Davis a tweener, either. He is more than capable of running an offense, even though he may score more than create.

 

Tweeners are good because of their versatility, and I personally likes a guy who can play multiple positions because it makes it tough for opposing teams to defend him. Guys like Lamar Odom, Rashard Lewis, Paul Millsap, Michael Beasley, and Jeff Green all have had or are having productive careers. It's a risk worth taking in my opinion.

 

Again these guys you are listing aren't tweeners (other than Beasley). There is a huge difference between being able to play two different positions well and being a tweener.

 

A guy like Luther Head is a tweener. Mike James is a tweener. Andrea Bargnani is a tweener.

 

Just because a guy is versatile doesn't mean he is a tweener. It just means he can play more than one position well.

[fish7718]

Tweeners are great because of their defensive capabilities. If you find a good one like a Loul Deng (who I know is just a prototypical SF), a guy who can match up at multiple positions and score against multiple defenders, that;s a keeper.

Edited March 30, 2011 by fish7718

[Finch23]

Gary Neal enough said <3

[Erick Blasco]

Tweeners are great because of their defensive capabilities. If you find a good one like a Loul Deng (who I know is just a prototypical SF), a guy who can match up at multiple positions and score against multiple defenders, that;s a keeper.

 

But like BFT is saying, Deng isn't a tweener. He's just a really good player.

 

When I think of tweeners I think of players like point guards who can't run an offense and look to score first while being undersized shooting guards who handle the ball a lot.

 

I also think of athletic forwards without the range to play outside or the muscle to play inside.

 

These assume limitations to the tweeners' positions.

 

If a point guard can't run an offense, it limits the complexity and the IQ of the team's offense and almost certainly makes teammates worse by preventing them from being in positions to succeed. How can they when the point guard is looking to score all the time? If a shooting guard is undersized, that player may have trouble scoring at the rim, and may have trouble shooting over longer defenders. If that player handles the ball a lot, again, it prevents diversification in an offense.

 

Players like Tyreke Evans and Monta Ellis are tweeners. You could call Russell Westbrook a tweener, but he's not as selfish as a ball-dominant scorer is. He's mostly just a bad decision-making point guard who can't run an offense (have you seen OKC's execution late in games? R-West is totally overrated on the pantheon of point guards). Steph Curry is likewise not ball-dominant and therefore not a tweener. He's just another guy who can't run an offense.

 

With bigs, Jeff Green is a tweener. He shoots okay. He can play inside against certain matchups. But usually he gets beaten up by physical fours, and has trouble spacing as a three. He's a classic tweener. The other guys (KG, Odom), are just multifaceted fours with the extra skills to play outside on offense and defense.

[?QuestionMark?]

There's a difference between tweeners and versatile players.

 

Guys like Odom, Grant Hill, Dirk are versatile.

 

Tweeners are guys that have no set position and more often than not are a liability to have on the floor because of it.

 

PJ Tucker, Alando Tucker, Shawn Respert, Marcus Fizer. Those were tweeners.

 

 

Tweeners are usually guys at the end of the bench. Some can play a key role in the right situation (Derek Fisher, Eddie House, Ben Gordon). But too often they're out of the league really quick and end up playing overseas where their skills are a better fit.

[fish7718]

nvm

Edited March 31, 2011 by fish7718

[Nitro]

Players like Tyreke Evans and Monta Ellis are tweeners. You could call Russell Westbrook a tweener, but he's not as selfish as a ball-dominant scorer is. He's mostly just a bad decision-making point guard who can't run an offense (have you seen OKC's execution late in games? R-West is totally overrated on the pantheon of point guards). Steph Curry is likewise not ball-dominant and therefore not a tweener. He's just another guy who can't run an offense.

 

I don't understand how Evans is a tweener. He's 6'6'', 220lbs and is played out of position at PG. If he's a tweener, then D-Wade has to be considered a tweener as well, because they have similar play styles and Evans actually has some height and muscle on Wade. I agree with Ellis being a tweener, and Westbrook/Curry not being tweeners, but I don't think being ball-dominant should be the make-or-break criteria. In the NBA, there are a number of SG's who have the handle and playmaking ability to run an offense for large chunks of the game, and I don't think they should be labelled a tweener because of it. Likewise, there are a number of PG's who have a strong ability to score the ball, while their playmaking ability isn't quite up to par yet...once again, I wouldn't necessarily label them a tweener. To me, it all comes down to the player's mentality...some just look to score, some just look to make plays for others. That's where you can draw the line when it comes to the backcourt positions.

 

The frontcourt positions are a little easier. Either you get beat up down low/in the paint, or you don't. If you get beat up down there, then you are either playing out of position or simply shouldn't be getting minutes. If you don't get beat up in the paint but have a lot of the abilities of a SF, then you are simply a versatile player. If you don't get beat up down low but can't play outside the paint, then you are in correct position.

 

Anyway, tweeners can be very beneficial to a ballclub, especially if they don't exposed too badly on either end of the floor (i.e undersized SG's getting burned defensively, or undersized PF's/C's getting killed on the boards). If you can play the game of basketball well, there is always a place for you on a good ballclub, regardless if you're a tweener or not.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Nitro

[Flash]

Russell Westbrook is overrated?

[fish7718]

Russell Westbrook is overrated?

I believe you posted an article saying he was just as deserving in the MVP race as Derrick Rose, so in that mentality, yes he is over rated.

[Flash]

I believe you posted an article saying he was just as deserving in the MVP race as Derrick Rose, so in that mentality, yes he is over rated.

 

 

That article wasn't about Westbrook being MVP, rather talking about how Rose isn't as deserving as people think.

[Check my Stats]

I don't want a tweener in my starting 5, especially in my frontcourt. The whole is he is a PF or a SF thing has ruined guys like Marvin, and has resulted in guys like Jamison putting up hollow stats because he plays the 4 offensively fine, but can't protect the rim like a prototypical 4 should, or help out on the glass like they should.

 

I don't get how Derrick Williams isn't a 3, the guy is 6-8 and 240, so by my guess he isn't gonna be an elite defender at the SF or PF position, but at least offensively he probably gives you more at the 3 than he does at the 4 at his size, looks like he is a really solid shooter. I have never pictured Beasley as a 4 either (an example that is from a similar player), at least on an effective team.

 

You can't get away with bad defenders/rebounders at the PF/C position, you just can't, but you can possibly get away with bad defenders at the other positions, at least compared to your bigs. It is like would you rather have Jose Calderon getting torched and the opposing point running into Perkins and KG, or having Rondo defending the opposing point and Love and Beasley behind him. More often than not, a 'tweener' like Beasley or Jamison is going to be taking away more than they are bringing you if they are playing the PF position.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Check my Stats

[AboveLegit]

When I think of tweeners I think of players like point guards who can't run an offense and look to score first while being undersized shooting guards who handle the ball a lot.

I rarely see guards being referred to as tweeners, if a player is an undersized off guard, he's referred exclusively as a combo guard. Tyreke Evans, Monta Ellis, etc fall under this category.

 

I like describing these players as the "lead guard" or the "off guard" because they aren't specific to one player in the backcourt, but rather defines the role that player has on any given possession. The mid-80s Celtics is a prime example of this, on any given possession, Dennis Johnson or Danny Ainge would be the lead or off guard.

[Erick Blasco]

I don't understand how Evans is a tweener. He's 6'6'', 220lbs and is played out of position at PG. If he's a tweener, then D-Wade has to be considered a tweener as well, because they have similar play styles and Evans actually has some height and muscle on Wade. I agree with Ellis being a tweener, and Westbrook/Curry not being tweeners, but I don't think being ball-dominant should be the make-or-break criteria. In the NBA, there are a number of SG's who have the handle and playmaking ability to run an offense for large chunks of the game, and I don't think they should be labelled a tweener because of it. Likewise, there are a number of PG's who have a strong ability to score the ball, while their playmaking ability isn't quite up to par yet...once again, I wouldn't necessarily label them a tweener. To me, it all comes down to the player's mentality...some just look to score, some just look to make plays for others. That's where you can draw the line when it comes to the backcourt positions.

 

The frontcourt positions are a little easier. Either you get beat up down low/in the paint, or you don't. If you get beat up down there, then you are either playing out of position or simply shouldn't be getting minutes. If you don't get beat up in the paint but have a lot of the abilities of a SF, then you are simply a versatile player. If you don't get beat up down low but can't play outside the paint, then you are in correct position.

 

Anyway, tweeners can be very beneficial to a ballclub, especially if they don't exposed too badly on either end of the floor (i.e undersized SG's getting burned defensively, or undersized PF's/C's getting killed on the boards). If you can play the game of basketball well, there is always a place for you on a good ballclub, regardless if you're a tweener or not.

 

 

I forget that Evans is 6-6 and not 6-3, but the important thing is that he's not a point guard.

 

I think we're agreeing on the same things with the concept though. But even if a player is looking to make plays for others some of the time, that player is still a tweener if he's dominating the ball and his size gives him some problems as a scorer. Look at Allen Iverson for example. He was a player who registered a decent chunk of assists, but he did so by massaging the ball on each possession. Yet he was too undersized (and took way too many awful shots) to really be an efficient scorer.

 

And while tweeners have their uses, it takes interesting roster management to get the most out of a team by starting them. For the most part, the most efficient tweeners are sixth-man types, while the most voluminous tweeners play for inefficient teams.

 

And by the way, it's good to have you back. I hope your rehab (and continued rehab) helps you become the Nitro you really want to be.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Erick Blasco

[Erick Blasco]

Russell Westbrook is overrated?

 

To an extent. Some people are classifying him as a top-five point guard and I don't see it. The thing separating Westbrook from other elite point guards is that the other guards all range from good to great in their decision making, with Rose probably being the worst and Nash probably being the best. Westbrook also has some problems making simple passes and correctly reading defenses. His athleticism makes up for it as a playmaker, but against good defenses, OKC has to rely on a lot of one-on-one stuff to score and they make awful, awful mistakes late in games.

[Flash]

To an extent. Some people are classifying him as a top-five point guard and I don't see it. The thing separating Westbrook from other elite point guards is that the other guards all range from good to great in their decision making, with Rose probably being the worst and Nash probably being the best. Westbrook also has some problems making simple passes and correctly reading defenses. His athleticism makes up for it as a playmaker, but against good defenses, OKC has to rely on a lot of one-on-one stuff to score and they make awful, awful mistakes late in games.

 

Who's better than him?

 

I got it as:

 

1. Paul

2. Williams

3. Rose

4. Westbrook

5. Rondo

6. Nash

[Erick Blasco]

Who's better than him?

 

I got it as:

 

1. Paul

2. Williams

3. Rose

4. Westbrook

5. Rondo

6. Nash

 

Right now, I'd take Rondo and Nash over Westbrook especially Nash in the endgame. I don't trust Westbrook making correct plays repeatedly with games in the balance, though he's certainly very good in simpler setups.