Obama And The White House Government Shutdown

[Real Deal]

This is where the problem lies. Bad teachers should be able to be fired, but tenure prevents that. THAT is wrong, and is hurting our education system. Why should bad teachers be able to keep their jobs? Why should teaching be different than almost any other job where poor performance is grounds for firing, and teaching is extremely important, so there's even more need to fire poor teachers?

I already stated why. Schools will fire to save money. They have in the past, firing teachers right before they have a chance at tenure, and that is not good, no matter how you swing the discussion.

 

Very good student teachers go through 4-5 years of absolute hell to get their teaching license, only to be thrown out three years into their teaching career. Schools would lust over the option to toss them 10 years into their career...just a bigger window to use up teachers until they find cheaper replacements.

 

Is there a chance that someone will come up with some sort of a system? Probably not. This stuff happens at jobs all over the place, also, but education is far, far more important than a job at Blockbuster, or even at a large company, such as Amazon (which has their main offices and production plant in Coffeyville).

[MainEv3nt]

I mention this b4 and nobody believed me lol

[fish7718]

You're a [expletive]ing idiot if you think teachers only work 5 days a week. Those days off? They work. They are at school before students and stay hours after. Summer vacation? They're working in preparation for the school year.

You mad?

 

lol I guarantee a lot of teachers only work 5 days a week smh

[Lkr]

I never said they didn't you moron. It isn't worth mentioning because people with MANY OTHER JOBS work after work and longer hours as well. Damn, you are so clueless.

They are't working 5+ days a week for an entire year. They get the weekends off like the students, along with all of the holidays, along with a 3 month summer vacation. They are working a lot less than people that hold other jobs that work five days a week, year round

I stated that teachers have to work on those days off. They have to read essays, grade papers, prepare lesson plans, prepare their lectures, write tests, etc etc etc. You said they only work 5 days a week and then they get tons of time off. Hell, some teachers are in their classrooms for the majority of the break just getting it ready for the beginning of the school year, because they have to do that shit themselves.

Make up your mind, where do you stand. You're flip flopping worse than Newt Gingrich on Libya.

 

BTW, everything Brandon said is 100% true. With other professions, after work is over, the rest of the day is yours. The weekends are yours. As a teacher, the job never ends.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Lkr

[Cavamatic]

Really glad this got done, had me worried.

[Guru]

As my 5th grade teacher once said: "I became a teacher because education was the easiest thing to major in college".

Lmao.

[Flash]

I stated that teachers have to work on those days off. They have to read essays, grade papers, prepare lesson plans, prepare their lectures, write tests, etc etc etc. You said they only work 5 days a week and then they get tons of time off. Hell, some teachers are in their classrooms for the majority of the break just getting it ready for the beginning of the school year, because they have to do that shit themselves.

Make up your mind, where do you stand. You're flip flopping worse than Newt Gingrich on Libya.

 

BTW, everything Brandon said is 100% true. With other professions, after work is over, the rest of the day is yours. The weekends are yours. As a teacher, the job never ends.

 

And? So what? They knew what they were getting into before they chose the profession. Are we supposed to sit here and feel bad for them because they have to grade papers and write tests?

 

And way to generalize about other professions and then act like teacher's don't have any free time at all lol.

 

This whole little pseudo-intellectual act you're trying to put on isn't fooling anyone tool.

[Real Deal]

And? So what? They knew what they were getting into before they chose the profession. Are we supposed to sit here and feel bad for them because they have to grade papers and write tests?

Nobody is asking you to feel bad for them. People are asking you to stop being a bitch and acting like you know what a teacher has to go through these days. Grading papers and writing tests is a tip of the iceberg, but obviously, you would know more because you are a teacher, or you live with one...

 

Why don't you tell me how easy it is to sit on my ass and fix computers and design websites all day long? I'd like to know, since I'm numb to what I do for a living, and it only makes sense to ask someone who has no idea.

[Lkr]

And? So what? They knew what they were getting into before they chose the profession. Are we supposed to sit here and feel bad for them because they have to grade papers and write tests?

 

And way to generalize about other professions and then act like teacher's don't have any free time at all lol.

 

This whole little pseudo-intellectual act you're trying to put on isn't fooling anyone tool.

what the [expletive] are you even trying to argue? ECN is pulling his bullshit, saying teachers have an easy job and they get good pay for the work they do, when in reality, they are underpaid for all of the hard work they have to do. are there bad teachers that don't deserve to be rewarded? yes. you run into this in every profession.

[Flash]

Nobody is asking you to feel bad for them. People are asking you to stop being a bitch and acting like you know what a teacher has to go through these days. Grading papers and writing tests is a tip of the iceberg, but obviously, you would know more because you are a teacher, or you live with one...

 

Why don't you tell me how easy it is to sit on my ass and fix computers and design websites all day long? I'd like to know, since I'm numb to what I do for a living, and it only makes sense to ask someone who has no idea.

 

Oh cool, random insults because someone has a different opinion.

 

No one said its easy. He simply said that their salary fits the amount of time they work in a year. My cousin is a teacher in NY, so I know what they have to do and what goes into being a teacher. I know all about lesson plans, grading papers, drawing up tests and getting everything prepared. However, that doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't feel bad for them or that they shouldn't be held accountable for their performance.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Flash

[NomarFachix]

And? So what? They knew what they were getting into before they chose the profession. Are we supposed to sit here and feel bad for them because they have to grade papers and write tests?

 

And way to generalize about other professions and then act like teacher's don't have any free time at all lol.

 

This whole little pseudo-intellectual act you're trying to put on isn't fooling anyone tool.

I don't get what the problem is with what he said, ECN said:

They are't working 5+ days a week for an entire year. They get the weekends off like the students, along with all of the holidays, along with a 3 month summer vacation. They are working a lot less than people that hold other jobs that work five days a week, year round.

And Lkr simply showed the flaw in that logic. They don't have nearly the time off that is perceived. Does that mean we have to feel bad for them? No. Does it mean that ECN's statement was wrong? Mostly.

[NomarFachix]

Oh cool, random insults because someone has a different opinion.

Pot, kettle. You just called Lkr a tool. Come on, now.

[Real Deal]

what the [expletive] are you even trying to argue? ECN is pulling his bullshit, saying teachers have an easy job and they get good pay for the work they do, when in reality, they are underpaid for all of the hard work they have to do. are there bad teachers that don't deserve to be rewarded? yes. you run into this in every profession.

You have to understand the mindset, you know? The less you do, the more you get in this country. Join the army, go fight a war, and bring home $25k a year (like my friend). Be a teacher in this area (where I live) and rake in $30k a year (my girlfriend). Fix computers and design websites and do it with inconsistent work, unless you'd rather work for a company that'll only pay you $12 an hour AFTER you earn all of your certificates and become senior technician.

 

Even worse, go to work at a production factory, and have to dump five-gallon buckets of sand for eight hours a day, $10/hour (my uncle).

 

Or, go hire people to answer your phone, set up your appointments, work your negotiations, drive your vehicles, clean your office, and run your company, and you'll never have to worry for the rest of your life (another uncle of mine).

 

This country absolutely sucks for that very reason, and because there are complete fools in office that spend more time worrying about the upcoming election, and what they "need to say" in order to win it, than actually doing what's best for this country, working with the other party, and getting shit done.

 

I'll speak on things I know. I don't assume anything just to throw middle and lower-class people and jobs under the bus. I wasn't brainwashed to do that.

[Real Deal]

Oh cool, random insults because someone has a different opinion.

 

No one said its easy. He simply said that their salary fits the amount of time they work in a year. My cousin is a teacher in NY, so I know what they have to do and what goes into being a teacher. I know all about lesson plans, grading papers, drawing up tests and getting everything prepared. However, that doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't feel bad for them or that they shouldn't be held accountable for their performance.

Lkr would've called you a bitch anyway, for you calling him a tool. Did you forget your last post already?

 

No, their salary doesn't fit the amount of time they put in. Sorry.

 

And no, they don't have all of the free time you claim they do. That's the only reason why I started replying in this topic, and I'm pretty sure that's why Lkr is replying.

 

I don't care if your cousin, from NY, is a teacher. I live with one. You can say you know. I'm pretty sure I know better, both the financial situation AND the time put into it.

 

Done talking. Nobody deserves respect if they don't know how to give it.

[Cavamatic]

Off topic here, but where is neg rep when you need it.

 

Teaching is a very hard profession, AFTER College. Due to lack of respect by Kids, etc etc.

[JYD]

Oh cool, random insults because someone has a different opinion.

 

No one said its easy. He simply said that their salary fits the amount of time they work in a year. My cousin is a teacher in NY, so I know what they have to do and what goes into being a teacher. I know all about lesson plans, grading papers, drawing up tests and getting everything prepared. However, that doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't feel bad for them or that they shouldn't be held accountable for their performance.

No one was really sitting here asking you to feel bad. We were just saying these Public school teachers don't deserve the same amount of scrutiny that so much of the public such as Christie give them. He's so off base and ignorant and acts like they are fat [expletive] millionaires such as himself, when clearly, they are not. I'd say most, at least younger teachers, barely get by.

 

And let me bold this so ECN and Flash can see this clearly. You guys say they should know the pay, the long hours, all that comes with the job when they go into the profession...fair enough, I agree, and I'm sure they do. But that's EXACTLY what's wrong with the Education. The really bright young minds in America do know about the mediocre pay, the long hours at home in preparation for your class, and the pain in the ass discipline problems can be, etc. etc. etc. So therefore, they go into different Corporate jobs, etc. instead of being great, hard-working dedicated teachers that could improve our education system! IF we made teaching a more high paying, more respectable job, then we could really see a major change in our education system. Otherwise, with people like Christie, you'll just see the old B.S. adage that teachers are overpaid, really don't do much, lazy-ass tenured state workers sucking up your taxes. Just think of the ignorance that stems from that statement, and get back to us.

[EastCoastNiner]

No one was really sitting here asking you to feel bad. We were just saying these Public school teachers don't deserve the same amount of scrutiny that so much of the public such as Christie give them. He's so off base and ignorant and acts like they are fat [expletive] millionaires such as himself, when clearly, they are not. I'd say most, at least younger teachers, barely get by.

 

And let me bold this so ECN and Flash can see this clearly. You guys say they should know the pay, the long hours, all that comes with the job when they go into the profession...fair enough, I agree, and I'm sure they do. But that's EXACTLY what's wrong with the Education. The really bright young minds in America do know about the mediocre pay, the long hours at home in preparation for your class, and the pain in the ass discipline problems can be, etc. etc. etc. So therefore, they go into different Corporate jobs, etc. instead of being great, hard-working dedicated teachers that could improve our education system! IF we made teaching a more high paying, more respectable job, then we could really see a major change in our education system. Otherwise, with people like Christie, you'll just see the old B.S. adage that teachers are overpaid, really don't do much, lazy-ass tenured state workers sucking up your taxes. Just think of the ignorance that stems from that statement, and get back to us.

 

Yes, I want teachers to possibly get paid more money, but have the possibility of being fired without an absurd process. Pay teachers more, and get rid of tenure or fix it.

[JYD]

Yes, I want teachers to possibly get paid more money, but have the possibility of being fired without an absurd process. Pay teachers more, and get rid of tenure or fix it.

Yes! Now we are making progress! Haha, I don't think you and I are too far off based when it comes to Education. I completely agree they need to be paid more, not simply cutting their benefits, pensions, and salary. That will HURT our Education, not help it. Sorry Christie...But I do completely agree once again they need to figure something out with tenure; the system is broken. To get rid of it completely? I'd say no, simply for the reasons Real Deal so clearly and articulately pointed out. But it is definitely a system that needs to be fixed.

Edited April 10, 2011 by JYD

[Flash]

I'm all for paying teacher's more. I absolutely believe its one of the most important professions in the entire world. My problem is with tenure and what we base their wages on. I believe a Merit Pay type system where like in plenty of other professions, the teachers are paid based on their performance and effectiveness in the classroom would work wonders. Also, tenure, the way its set up now just isn't doing the students justice and a lot of good teacher's aren't being paid as much as they should Like ECN said, either re-vamp the entire system or just eliminate all together. The teacher's union wants no part of a merit pay system though. Why? I'm not sure.

[Flash]

Yes! Now we are making progress! Haha, I don't think you and I are too far off based when it comes to Education. I completely agree they need to be paid more, not simply cutting their benefits, pensions, and salary. That will HURT our Education, not help it. Sorry Christie...But I do completely agree once again they need to figure something out with tenure; the system is broken. To get rid of it completely? I'd say no, simply for the reasons Real Deal so clearly and articulately pointed out. But it is definitely a system that needs to be fixed.

 

Christie is only doing this because IIRC, the state of NJ lost a billion dollars in federal funding which he now has to make up for somehow. Asking teachers to take a 1 year pay freeze isn't asking for much IMO and the union really should've worked with him on that.

[JYD]

I'm all for paying teacher's more. I absolutely believe its one of the most important professions in the entire world. My problem is with tenure and what we base their wages on. I believe a Merit Pay type system where like in plenty of other professions, the teachers are paid based on their performance and effectiveness in the classroom would work wonders. Also, tenure, the way its set up now just isn't doing the students justice and a lot of good teacher's aren't being paid as much as they should Like ECN said, either re-vamp the entire system or just eliminate all together. The teacher's union wants no part of a merit pay system though. Why? I'm not sure.

Lol. Why wouldn't that want it? Quite simple dude...what if you work in a real urban area where the kids are not there to learn but goof off and be dumbasses. It starts at home; let's all remember that education and effort in the classroom largely has to do with how much your parents push you and make you be involved. Because if my parents didn't push me I probably wouldn't have given a [expletive]. So a teacher can be great, but you can't physically force kids to do the work, so if their grades suffer and they don't open their ears to learn, the teacher gets fired/lower wages? I mean, that's just flat out BS, c'mon.

 

Christie is only doing this because IIRC, the state of NJ lost a billion dollars in federal funding which he now has to make up for somehow. Asking teachers to take a 1 year pay freeze isn't asking for much IMO and the union really should've worked with him on that.

Yeah but Christie has made the teachers union especially a major target. Plus, there's other ways to lower the budget. Cutting 820 mil from schools is a helluva lot, especially when America's education is already suffering. We need to find other places where we could cut money. Maybe less tax cuts for the top 2% of the state? Nah, wouldn't consider that...I mean, stuff like that we could find other ways to slowly close teh budget gap.

[Real Deal]

So I talked to Jess, and she told me about how, if they were to reconfigure tenure, it should be based on something similar to NBA contracts (this is me making the comparison, by the way...she went into a lot of detail, but it compares to the NBA contracts). She knows a few teachers over at her school that actually agree.

 

Basically, she stated that the first three years are for teachers to build up enough credibility to acquire a five-year deal. The five years is guaranteed money.

 

After the five years is up, if the teacher renews, it's for ten years, which eventually becomes the max "contract" a teacher can earn AFTER the initial three (three one-year evaluations) and the first five-year "contract" they earn.

[EastCoastNiner]

So I talked to Jess, and she told me about how, if they were to reconfigure tenure, it should be based on something similar to NBA contracts (this is me making the comparison, by the way...she went into a lot of detail, but it compares to the NBA contracts). She knows a few teachers over at her school that actually agree.

 

Basically, she stated that the first three years are for teachers to build up enough credibility to acquire a five-year deal. The five years is guaranteed money.

 

After the five years is up, if the teacher renews, it's for ten years, which eventually becomes the max "contract" a teacher can earn AFTER the initial three (three one-year evaluations) and the first five-year "contract" they earn.

 

Yes, that is better, but I don't like the lengths on the contracts still. It's a much better idea as teachers have to prove themselves first, but I think the length is a little long.

 

I still don't get why some of you guys think teachers should have the security of the union and tenure, especially when New Jersey has only fired 17 teachers in the past ten years.

 

It's the same thing in the NBA and all other sports. If you can't hack it, you get cut....

[Flash]

I think anything more than 7 years is way too long for a guaranteed teacher contract because then you have some that will slip back into having too much job security that they'll begin to slack and not have that same performance they had when they knew their ass was on the line. That does sound like a great way to do things though.