GM4: Chicago at Miami (MIA 2-1)

[Dash]

To be fair to Rose he did play a 50 minute game.

[JYD]

So you're going to blame his 7 turnovers on his team? The same team that won 60+ games this season? And no, he was not getting triple teamed.

Uh, first of all, when he goes to the hoop, three guys constantly converge on him when he beats the initial defender. Secondly, he was being thrown doubles and triples, many of times caused him to turn it over or make poor passes because the guys doubling him were so tall, he couldn't see over them.

 

And this team won 60 games because they play excellent defense (something they are well coached at and do have great individual defenders ex. brewer, deng)...but this team is INEPT offensively.

 

Plus, at the end of the game, like I've stated for some reason they were running a ton of iso's...So, he had to try to be the hero.

[Real Deal]

You've got to be kidding me dude, come on. I know your basketball knowledge is far superior to what you are displaying in this post...LOL.

 

Unless your talking about Russell Westbrook....

 

 

Dude, Rose has been getting thrown doubles all series. And let's not forget he has a 6'9" GREAT perimeter defender on him as well in the last quarter of this game.

 

Also, one more thing...the dude plays EVERY minute and gets no offensive support. God forbid Korver hits a damn shot.

The Heat weren't trying to double him every possession. There were many times he had Bibby stuck on him, one man, and he took an ill-advised jumper. He's one of the best finishers in the game...and in Game 2 or 3 (can't remember which), he was missing layups, floaters, etc...and now, he's bricking jumpers.

 

No point guard in their right mind tries to take jumpers over a 6-8 LeBron James, either. Rose has to get a foot in the paint, at the very least.

 

He did get offensive help in this game. Deng and Boozer were efficient, but he decided to take 27 shots. People take jabs at Kobe for doing it, and they go after LeBron, Westbrook, and other all-stars, so I have no idea why we aren't talking about Rose and his 37% or so shooting against an inferior Indiana Pacers team, and the poor performances he's had throughout the rest of the playoffs.

[Erick Blasco]

What confuses me even more is that Russell Westbrook gets so much heat for playing so poorly, yet Rose is struggling mightily himself. We always talk about him being the "modest superstar" but the problem is, he's not. Like you just mentioned, he takes hero shots (like the two potential gamewinners on LBJ late in the fourth), and simply isn't a great passer. When teams like Miami lock in on this Bulls team, it's very easy to exploit match ups because no one can create their shot outside of Derrick. Boozer is just as soft as Gasol, Deng needs to be spoon-fed his shots, and Korver is only good when teams fall asleep on him as he rolls off screens.

 

I'd post the thread during the first round of the playoffs where I said there was a double standard because nobody criticized Rose for being unable to run an offense and being a poor decision maker, but that would be arrogant of me.

 

What I actually am proud of is that all the hyper-reactionary criticism of Spoelstra has taken a backseat. The Heat don't run the most complicated offense, but his baseline screen stuff gets some off-ball action, and allows his players to attack from the baseline, mostly Wade. Plus the man knows how to coach defense and how to hold people accountable. All the "patience" and "trust the system" stuff he talked about early in the season is paying off---and I'm impressed with the product. He's stuck with Anthony, he's made Bosh into a quality defender, and the Heat swallow teams up. Let's see how their killer instinct is in Game Five.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Erick Blasco

[JYD]

The Heat weren't trying to double him every possession. There were many times he had Bibby stuck on him, one man, and he took an ill-advised jumper. He's one of the best finishers in the game...and in Game 2 or 3 (can't remember which), he was missing layups, floaters, etc...and now, he's bricking jumpers.

 

No point guard in their right mind tries to take jumpers over a 6-8 LeBron James, either. Rose has to get a foot in the paint, at the very least.

 

He did get offensive help in this game. Deng and Boozer were efficient, but he decided to take 27 shots. People take jabs at Kobe for doing it, and they go after LeBron, Westbrook, and other all-stars, so I have no idea why we aren't talking about Rose and his 37% or so shooting against an inferior Indiana Pacers team, and the poor performances he's had throughout the rest of the playoffs.

No, it's different in other situations though dude. First of all, Kobe has a way better team around him. Gasol, Odom, Artest, Bynum, etc. are way better than what Chicago has. Westbrook's situation is not comparable; Westbrook is the No. 2 option CLEARLY, when Rose is the No. 1 option CLEARLY. That's largely dictatates your shot choice.

 

Secondly, when he goes to the hoop there's 3 guys that converge on him. Boozer played a solid offensive game - but it's just not enough to get them over the hump against a team like Miami. He's just not very good. Same with Deng. Deng cannot create his own shot.

 

Everyone knows Rose isn't a very efficient jump shooter. I'm not claiming he is. But you can't get into the paint when you got guys running at you all day and when you do beat the initial defender, you have Haslam, Anthony, Bosh, etc. etc. stepping right into your grill.

 

Don't want to take anything away for Miami - as much as I hate them, they deserve a lot more praise than for us to criticize Rose. Schematically, they've played him great.

[Real Deal]

Pullling a post out of the Game 3 topic, posted today (before Game 4).

 

Lol I heard this morning that D Rose asked his coach that he wants more iso situations against Miami. so I dont think that that is gonna happen.

And it's something I heard as well.

 

Wade swatted him a couple of times, he lost the ball 5-6 times and it was on him, he chose to shoot contested jumpers in the second half and OT, and now Kenny Smith is slamming him.

[Erick Blasco]

And when criticizing the Bulls offense, can we please give some credit to the Heat defense? What magic play are the Bulls going to run that will generate offense? The Bulls don't have enough one-on-one scoring or playmaking to consistently score against exceptional defense except when Rose gets strung out by a screen and the Bulls can get the ball to Noah at the foul line with a numbers advantage. Miami's defense is championship-caliber.

[AboveLegit]

Uh, first of all, when he goes to the hoop, three guys constantly converge on him when he beats the initial defender. Secondly, he was being thrown doubles and triples, many of times caused him to turn it over or make poor passes because the guys doubling him were so tall, he couldn't see over them.

 

And this team won 60 games because they play excellent defense (something they are well coached at and do have great individual defenders ex. brewer, deng)...but this team is INEPT offensively.

 

Plus, at the end of the game, like I've stated for some reason they were running a ton of iso's...So, he had to try to be the hero.

The Heat ran iso's for LBJ throughout the game, and he found ways to score or facilitate regardless of the schemes Thibs was running. Who's to say Rose can't do the same?

 

Your excuses can only take you so far. There's absolutely no reason why Rose was 8-26 from the field, 1-8 from three, and 7 TO's.

 

And Lol at you saying this team is inept offensively. They have three 17PPG+ scorers on the team... Rose isn't a great playmaker, which is why the talent isn't maximized on the court. Had he been more content passing the ball, things would be much different. An inept offense is the Washington Wizards, watch them before making judgements about the best team in the league during the regular season with the COTY and MVP..

[JYD]

Pullling a post out of the Game 3 topic, posted today (before Game 4).

 

 

And it's something I heard as well.

 

Wade swatted him a couple of times, he lost the ball 5-6 times and it was on him, he chose to shoot contested jumpers in the second half and OT, and now Kenny Smith is slamming him.

There were certainly times Rose took ill advised shots - he does quite often, actually. But that's part of being the go-to-guy on your team. You have to be willing to take the big shots at the end of the game.

 

On the last play of regulation, I was really hoping for maybe a pick and roll, or possibly a penetrate and dish. I didn't like the play call for an iso against LeBron there at all...

 

But, another thing is no matter how amazing Rose has been all season - he is human. At some point, playing 50 minutes and a long NBA season has to wear on you, and it was pretty apparent that he ran out of gas. He has to do so much offensively, that even he was so worn out at the end you could tell.

[Dash]

Wow, please stop...Lol. They ran iso plays for him, neither of them were open, and Boozer missed a few key FT's and was not that great offensively. Let's stop crowning him. And Deng is no offensive threat outside of occasionally being open on a spot up three..

 

Right because Rose's 8-27 shooting was SO much better.

[AboveLegit]

I'd post the thread during the first round of the playoffs where I said there was a double standard because nobody criticized Rose for being unable to run an offense and being a poor decision maker, but that would be arrogant of me.

Well I think a good amount of posters knew he wasn't a great passer, his court vision isn't in the tier of Nash, Kidd, or Paul, and is definitely considered a scoring PG.

 

What I actually am proud of is that all the hyper-reactionary criticism of Spoelstra has taken a backseat. The Heat don't run the most complicated offense, but his baseline screen stuff gets some off-ball action, and allows his players to attack from the baseline, mostly Wade. Plus the man knows how to coach defense and how to hold people accountable. All the "patience" and "trust the system" stuff he talked about early in the season is paying off---and I'm impressed with the product. He's stuck with Anthony, he's made Bosh into a quality defender, and the Heat swallow teams up. Let's see how their killer instinct is in Game Five.

Agreed, I've always liked Spo as the coach of this team, he's a players coach much like Doc, and believes in the same philosophies as you mentioned. Trust goes a long way when dealing with multiple superstars.

 

And when criticizing the Bulls offense, can we please give some credit to the Heat defense? What magic play are the Bulls going to run that will generate offense? The Bulls don't have enough one-on-one scoring or playmaking to consistently score against exceptional defense except when Rose gets strung out by a screen and the Bulls can get the ball to Noah at the foul line with a numbers advantage. Miami's defense is championship-caliber.

I'm just as impressed as you are. I thought LBJ's defense tonight was reminiscent of Pippen in his prime, it was that good.

[JYD]

And when criticizing the Bulls offense, can we please give some credit to the Heat defense? What magic play are the Bulls going to run that will generate offense? The Bulls don't have enough one-on-one scoring or playmaking to consistently score against exceptional defense except when Rose gets strung out by a screen and the Bulls can get the ball to Noah at the foul line with a numbers advantage. Miami's defense is championship-caliber.

WELL SAID. You're completely right - they don't have the offense to compete with Miami's defense outside of Rose, which brings me back to my initial point - I really think his supporting cast of Boozer, Deng, Korver, Noah, etc. are just not capable of winning a championship. They have to get better offensive players...people who can can create their own shot.

 

The Heat ran iso's for LBJ throughout the game, and he found ways to score or facilitate regardless of the schemes Thibs was running. Who's to say Rose can't do the same?

 

Your excuses can only take you so far. There's absolutely no reason why Rose was 8-26 from the field, 1-8 from three, and 7 TO's.

 

And Lol at you saying this team is inept offensively. They have three 17PPG+ scorers on the team... Rose isn't a great playmaker, which is why the talent isn't maximized on the court. Had he been more content passing the ball, things would be much different. An inept offense is the Washington Wizards, watch them before making judgements about the best team in the league during the regular season with the COTY and MVP..

Lol...There's a reason Rose was the MVP. Because the Bulls would be a 40 win team without him.

 

And LeBron is better suited for an Iso play. He has Bosh and Wade that you have to respect...Plus, LeBron is 6'9" 260 lbs. He can truck through anyone. Rose is a PG who has to play 50 MPG and virtually create the offense everytime down the court; plus being guarded by the best perimeter defensive player in the game...

[Flash]

Just an amazing game, by far the game of the playoffs IMO. What a way to fight through everything Chicago threw at us. Boozer played well, Deng was outstanding and when it came down to it, LeBron stepped up and just dominate his matchup on both ends of the floor. The last play where Wade swatted the ball, LBJ used every ounce of energy to save the ball and then Udonis getting on the floor to give it to Mike was the play of the season. That play was everything Heat basketball is out.

[Real Deal]

No, it's different in other situations though dude. First of all, Kobe has a way better team around him. Gasol, Odom, Artest, Bynum, etc. are way better than what Chicago has. Westbrook's situation is not comparable; Westbrook is the No. 2 option CLEARLY, when Rose is the No. 1 option CLEARLY. That's largely dictatates your shot choice.

 

Secondly, when he goes to the hoop there's 3 guys that converge on him. Boozer played a solid offensive game - but it's just not enough to get them over the hump against a team like Miami. He's just not very good. Same with Deng. Deng cannot create his own shot.

 

Everyone knows Rose isn't a very efficient jump shooter. I'm not claiming he is. But you can't get into the paint when you got guys running at you all day and when you do beat the initial defender, you have Haslam, Anthony, Bosh, etc. etc. stepping right into your grill.

 

Don't want to take anything away for Miami - as much as I hate them, they deserve a lot more praise than for us to criticize Rose. Schematically, they've played him great.

Rose has a good team around him when he's utilizing his teammates in the right moments. Chicago doesn't win 60, otherwise. Cleveland doesn't have their 60-win seasons without guys knocking down jumpers. LeBron faced more defensive attention in Cleveland, but he knew when to apply pressure, knew how to pick his spots, something Rose struggles with.

 

When Rose is clearly the aggressor, and it's obvious when he will be, Miami won't have trouble defending them. The Bulls are as predictable as the Thunder, and that's why both teams are down 3-1.

 

Getting to the paint, and getting there to finish at the rim, are two different things. One is being an aggressive scorer, the other is being a versatile offensive player...looking for cutters, spot-up shooters, or to get the foul and/or put in the bucket.

 

Aggressive Rose is Predictable Rose. He stays in that mode for too long. Miami doesn't have to do much outside of drop help into the paint, and that's why there's no need to double him on the perimeter...because everyone on the floor knows what he'll do. LeBron, who should be getting TORCHED by one of the quickest PG's in the league, knew exactly what Rose was going to do.

 

Bibby is actually playing good defense on Rose. That's one of the only times I've stated that Bibby plays defense. Why? Because Rose is predictable, and he's missing slightly-contested jumpers.

 

It compares to Westbrook, when Kobe was defending him in last season's first round. Kobe knew to give him room, knew exactly how he was going to attack the rim, and in the last two games of that series, he was completely locked up, after dominating the first four games against Fisher.

[Dash]

No one is saying that the Bulls would be better off without Rose, he's the reason that they are even in the ECF in the first round. However, when you are shooting 8-27 with a 6-9 monster in your face...it is time to pass the ball and look elsewhere for some offense instead of doing the same step-back move every other play.

[JYD]

Rose has a good team around him when he's utilizing his teammates in the right moments. Chicago doesn't win 60, otherwise. Cleveland doesn't have their 60-win seasons without guys knocking down jumpers. LeBron faced more defensive attention in Cleveland, but he knew when to apply pressure, knew how to pick his spots, something Rose struggles with.

 

When Rose is clearly the aggressor, and it's obvious when he will be, Miami won't have trouble defending them. The Bulls are as predictable as the Thunder, and that's why both teams are down 3-1.

 

Getting to the paint, and getting there to finish at the rim, are two different things. One is being an aggressive scorer, the other is being a versatile offensive player...looking for cutters, spot-up shooters, or to get the foul and/or put in the bucket.

 

Aggressive Rose is Predictable Rose. He stays in that mode for too long. Miami doesn't have to do much outside of drop help into the paint, and that's why there's no need to double him on the perimeter...because everyone on the floor knows what he'll do. LeBron, who should be getting TORCHED by one of the quickest PG's in the league, knew exactly what Rose was going to do.

 

Bibby is actually playing good defense on Rose. That's one of the only times I've stated that Bibby plays defense. Why? Because Rose is predictable, and he's missing slightly-contested jumpers.

 

It compares to Westbrook, when Kobe was defending him in last season's first round. Kobe knew to give him room, knew exactly how he was going to attack the rim, and in the last two games of that series, he was completely locked up, after dominating the first four games against Fisher.

Let me start off by saying that the former situation of LeBron in Cle is more like Rose's situation now. Although I do think Chicago is better than Cleveland, Rose has to do so much. He's just being asked to do too much in this series IMO.

 

The situation differs so much from Westbrook because they are such different players. I mean, both struggle with a consistent shot but Rose doesn't have Durant on his team. Hell, if you give Derrick Rose Kevin Durant they would win it all. Lol.

 

And LeBron isn't going to get torched by Rose because first of all it was clearly obvious Rose was exhausted. I mean, the guy played the entire 2nd half, and 50 total minutes in the game. Secondly, when you have that much help defense to fall back on, you can play pretty aggressive defense. So many times Rose gets into the paint and he's swarmed and he gets called for a charge or throws some errant pass because Miami has so many big, long defenders in the middle like Bosh, Haslam, and Anthony.

 

Idk, to me, Miami is the far superior team. They are well balanced (outside of having a true C or post presence, although a post presence is very overrated in today's NBA) and guys won't get tired. LeBron looked so fresh at the end of the game because he's not asked to carry his team every single possession of the game...

[Dash]

Just an amazing game, by far the game of the playoffs IMO. What a way to fight through everything Chicago threw at us. Boozer played well, Deng was outstanding and when it came down to it, LeBron stepped up and just dominate his matchup on both ends of the floor. The last play where Wade swatted the ball, LBJ used every ounce of energy to save the ball and then Udonis getting on the floor to give it to Mike was the play of the season. That play was everything Heat basketball is out.

 

Mike Miller also gave Miami a huge boost. It was good to see him finally be a factor again.

[Real Deal]

By the way, the minutes he played tonight can't be used as an excuse. In Game 2 and 3 of this series (not even going to look at the other two series), Rose shot 7-23 (30%) and 8-19 (42%), playing 42 and 39 minutes, respectively.

 

I won't show you the full stats proving how bad Rose was in the first round against the Pacers, but he only had one game where he shot over 44%, and of the five, he shot 27% or less twice. He shot 0-9 from three in the first game, and 1-9 in another game.

 

He's messing up.

[AboveLegit]

Lol...There's a reason Rose was the MVP. Because the Bulls would be a 40 win team without him.

Has nothing to do with my point.

 

And LeBron is better suited for an Iso play. He has Bosh and Wade that you have to respect...Plus, LeBron is 6'9" 260 lbs. He can truck through anyone. Rose is a PG who has to play 50 MPG and virtually create the offense everytime down the court; plus being guarded by the best perimeter defensive player in the game...

Rose has ran plenty of ISO's this season, there's no reason why he can't do it now... Rose has Korver and Deng to kick it out to, as well as a midrange threat in Boozer.

 

And please stop with this 50MPG business, he's averaging 39MPG this playoffs. LeBron's been doing it his whole career. Through those two most recent title runs, Kobe was averaging 40MPG as a 32 year old. Rose is 22 years old, don't make excuses that he's overwhelmed or is getting tired.

[JYD]

By the way, the minutes he played tonight can't be used as an excuse. In Game 2 and 3 of this series (not even going to look at the other two series), Rose shot 7-23 (30%) and 8-19 (42%), playing 42 and 39 minutes, respectively.

 

I won't show you the full stats proving how bad Rose was in the first round against the Pacers, but he only had one game where he shot over 44%, and of the five, he shot 27% or less twice. He shot 0-9 from three in the first game, and 1-9 in another game.

 

He's messing up.

He's never been an efficient shooter. He has to put up so many shots because this team does not have a true second option like even the Lakers had Gasol. Or the Mavs have a guy like Terry who can come in and get his own shot and really score the ball. The Bulls need someone like that. They have guys who are terrific defenders and guys who can hit some outside shots but no one that can really take the pressure off of Rose. He truly is swarmed by these opponents...

 

Rose has definitely lost some trust in his teammates. You can certainly tell that. He's absolutely more unwilling to pass now than all season and I really don't blame him. Lol.

[JYD]

Has nothing to do with my point.

 

 

Rose has ran plenty of ISO's this season, there's no reason why he can't do it now... Rose has Korver and Deng to kick it out to, as well as a midrange threat in Boozer.

 

And please stop with this 50MPG business, he's averaging 39MPG this playoffs. LeBron's been doing it his whole career. Through those two most recent title runs, Kobe was averaging 40MPG as a 32 year old. Rose is 22 years old, don't make excuses that he's overwhelmed or is getting tired.

Human beings still get tired. Doesn't matter if he's 22...this is the most games he's ever played in his career in a season...very long season man...And Rose is playing against a great defense in Miami. That takes a toll every time down the court, whenever he gets at the rim he was getting fouled hard as well...

 

Korver hasn't made much all series, Deng never creates his own shot, and Boozer's midrange game, lol, come on dude....

 

Whatever. Believe what you want to believe. At the end of the day, Miami is up 3-1, they look like the better overall team, and Rose, to me, idc what ya'll say, looks tired and overmatched against a team that is great defensively. I applaud the guy's effort. There's just only so much he can do. He never gets any high percentage looks so...

Edited May 25, 2011 by JYD

[Art]

Thats why you don't listen to the hype. ESPN builds guys up for profit, uses and then spits them out like old McDonald's fries.

[reno]

Rose has been terrible this whole playoffs for the most part, no argument there. That last possession before ot was horrible. Boozers been horrible, but past 2 games hes at least scoring offensively, but he's so terrible on defense. Korver has been super bad lately. Having asik out is hurting us. No one can create shots on this team, we need a real sg. And not just a sg, we need a superstar sg.

[AboveLegit]

Human beings still get tired. Doesn't matter if he's 22...this is the most games he's ever played in his career in a season...very long season man...And Rose is playing against a great defense in Miami. That takes a toll every time down the court, whenever he gets at the rim he was getting fouled hard as well...

So explain to me how Paul Pierce played back to back 40 minute games against the Heat in round 2? Rondo played with a broken arm, yet he still managed to play 30 minutes against them.

 

Korver hasn't made much all series, Deng never creates his own shot, and Boozer's midrange game, lol, come on dude....

Deng is still a good shooter when given the opportunity to shoot, he was 8-16 from the field, so why was he ignored late in the fourth? Boozer was 7-14 from the field, why didn't he get the ball? Rose just doesn't get the most out of his teammates, he tries to do too much with the ball much like Westbrook, and it's hurting his team.

[JYD]

So explain to me how Paul Pierce played back to back 40 minute games against the Heat in round 2? Rondo played with a broken arm, yet he still managed to play 30 minutes against them.

 

 

Deng is still a good shooter when given the opportunity to shoot, he was 8-16 from the field, so why was he ignored late in the fourth? Boozer was 7-14 from the field, why didn't he get the ball? Rose just doesn't get the most out of his teammates, he tries to do too much with the ball much like Westbrook, and it's hurting his team.

How did those guys fare in the series? Pretty sure not too well. My point is if you don't think fatigue played at least a small part in this, you're truly hilarious and not even worth my time to have an actual intelligent debate with.

 

I'm not saying that was the only reason; hell I'm not even saying it was the main reason Rose played poorly. The two main reasons I think Rose has played bad of late: 1. An inept offensive supporting cast. 2. Miami just playing great defense and throwing different defenders on him to keep them fresh.

 

Rose set Boozer up several times. Boozer's not like Amar'e, or even Garnett, for example. He's not a guy who can get his own shot with a quick move to the basket, or a great midrange jumpshot.... He needs to score garbage points down low or be set up. The only thing I like about Boozer's game is he is a good rebounder. Other than that, he's really not that good of a player.

 

And stop comparing him to Westbrook. The difference is WESTBROOK HAS DURANT, AND ROSE DOESN'T! Rose is the MVP because he has carried his team all year! Westbrook has not carried his team all year! Durant has. Jesus Christ, stop bringing up Russell Westbrook in this entire thing.