GM5: Miami at Chicago (MIA 3-1)

[Nitro]

Oliver, how quickly do we all forget how good Gasol was last season, and how Dirk couldn't lead the Mavs over an aging #7 seed in San Antonio last year.

 

...and how Gasol never won a single playoff game as the #1 guy, including getting ripped apart head-to-head by Dirk in the 2006 playoffs.

 

As I said before the season started, Dirk is clearly the best PF in the league. Unless you have a prime KG all-around type game, then give me a legit #1 scoring option who is at least average everywhere else over the #2 option who is above average/good at everything else (which doesn't even really apply to Gasol besides his rebounding and passing).

[Erick Blasco]

...and how Gasol never won a single playoff game as the #1 guy, including getting ripped apart head-to-head by Dirk in the 2006 playoffs.

 

As I said before the season started, Dirk is clearly the best PF in the league. Unless you have a prime KG all-around type game, then give me a legit #1 scoring option who is at least average everywhere else over the #2 option who is above average/good at everything else (which doesn't even really apply to Gasol besides his rebounding and passing).

 

And how Gasol played incomparably better in 2009 and 2010 than how he played in 2006 where Gasol WAS the most effective option the Lakers had against the Celtics and Magi those two years. Gasol did all he did against Garnett and Dwight too.

 

I recognize that Dirk has taken steps this season that make him better than his 2006 version, why do people not assume that Gasol made similar strides?

Edited May 27, 2011 by Erick Blasco

[Nitro]

I recognize that Dirk has taken steps this season that make him better than his 2006 version, why do people not assume that Gasol made similar strides?

 

Because for over half the season and the entire post-season he tucked his tail between his legs and played a level of basketball that would have made the Mavs a 7th/8th seed and first round exit if Dirk duplicated his performances. It also doesn't help that Dirk's less talented Mavs swept Gasol's Lakers, and also dominated the individual matchup.

 

Even if you use last year's Gasol in the debate, I'd still take Dirk, just as I did before the season started. He's simply more consistent, reliable and can single handedly dominate and win games in the 4th quarter in a way Gasol cannot. He's also a good rebounder, good passer and solid defender...good enough to where the difference in their abilities to score and lead a team give Dirk the clear edge.

[Abro]

So be it, another Heat-Mavs in the Finals. I hope those Finals will be great (obviously...).

 

Fun fact, those two teams have each only be to the Finals twice (including this one so) in their (short) history, and they faced each other both times. Weird..

 

Well this time Dallas is overall a better team. And Dirk is a better leader than he was at the time. So the Mavs have a very strong chance to win it all. Definitely. I'm personally very glad to see the Mavs back into the Finals as, first Dirk is my favorite player, second I don't know how many times I've said that Dirk was up there with Bryant as one of the very best leaders in the league and one of the most clutch ones also. Because the fact is that, everyone's praising Dirk right now, but he was already this good those past couple of years. And CLEARLY the best PF in the game. Seriously I don't know how many times I had debates about this, especially last year when a lot of people were trying to convince me that Gasol was clearly better than him... And I'm glad that now everyone knows better. Although it's just sad that most people didn't realize that before, when he didn't have as good teammates...

 

Well anyhow Dallas is better than they were at the time but the fact is that Miami is too... In 2006 the Mavs were clearly better than Miami. The Heat had chemistry problems all year long and it wasn't surprising to see Dallas literally dominated them in the first two games. The only problem is that Dallas wasn't tough enough in their heads, and Dirk was not as clutch as he is now, so when the Heat got game 3 in money time the Mavs just lost their confidence. And started to struggle, this despite the fact that they were the better team. This time both teams are better than they were at the time (which is good news, we should have a great Finals) but still the fact is that, even if everyone is high on their D, the Heat didn't face even ONE team that is even close to the Mavs offensively. And Dirk is so hot... There's no one in Miami who can stop him. I'm sure of that. It's against Dallas that we're gonna see if the Heat defense is REALLY that good. The Heat got a strong chance to win as well, don't get me wrong, but right now I give the edge to Dallas nonetheless as the favorite to win it all, because they faced overall better teams. Let's face it the Heat faced a Sixers team who is for me the less good team of the playoffs, a C's team that was clearly too old, that didn't have Perk nor Shaq, and a Bulls team who was clearly not as good as they were in the regular season, this first because of Rose struggling the whole playoffs (yet everyone agrees that if the Bulls were that good this year, it was FIRST thanks to him), yet all their wins were close ones (except one game against Phila). So they've played very well, but it's still at the same time not THAT impressive to be honest. While the Mavs had to play against a very good Blazers team, the Lakers (they were not at their best but they were stil the champs, SWEEPING them the way they did is very impressive nonetheless) and a Thunder team who, even if they still lack of something to be a true ring contender IMO, were still a very good team. Besides the Mavs have been quite good offensively AND defensively, the same can't be said for Miami who's been very good defensively but their offense haven't been as impressive. So Dallas has been IMO the most impressive team of the playoffs so far.

 

Anyhow it's great to see Dirk having a second chance to win a ring this year and I really hope for him that he's gonna win it this year. Honestly if the Mavs lost a second time to Miami I'll be devastated... I think I'll just cut my dick off and [expletive] myself in the ass !!!

 

Let's go Mavs !!!

Who do the Mavs have to stop LeBron? Because I cant see Marion or J-Kidd being able to slow him down because , like Dirk, he is on fire too. and I see D-wade going off this series too. I think The Heat have more options to stop Dirk than the Mavs have to stop D-wade and LeBron. I agree this will be an awesome series, but your not doing it justice by talking so highly of the Mavs and not giving credit to Miami. I still think Miami is a defensive force to be reckoned with because they are superior to The mavs in that aspect and will slow them down. And as for the scoring.. what are you talking about exactly? Miami has been scoring pretty well against the top tier defenses in Boston and Chicago. Mavs D is definitely not as good as theirs so i see it as Miami will be able to score more effectively and easily against the Mavs as well. I just think that your not giving the Heat enough credit and underestimating them tbh. Lets see if I'm wrong though! Either way, like you said, it will be a great series!

[Flash]

Still can't believe what we did last night.

[Erick Blasco]

Because for over half the season and the entire post-season he tucked his tail between his legs and played a level of basketball that would have made the Mavs a 7th/8th seed and first round exit if Dirk duplicated his performances. It also doesn't help that Dirk's less talented Mavs swept Gasol's Lakers, and also dominated the individual matchup.

 

Even if you use last year's Gasol in the debate, I'd still take Dirk, just as I did before the season started. He's simply more consistent, reliable and can single handedly dominate and win games in the 4th quarter in a way Gasol cannot. He's also a good rebounder, good passer and solid defender...good enough to where the difference in their abilities to score and lead a team give Dirk the clear edge.

 

I'm strictly using 2008-2010 Gasol. This season's Gasol pales in comparison to Dirk, but this season's Gasol also pales in comparison to last season's Gasol.

[Oliver P]

Oliver, how quickly do we all forget how good Gasol was last season, and how Dirk couldn't lead the Mavs over an aging #7 seed in San Antonio last year.

 

Actually I do not forget anything.

 

First of all, as I clearly said it in my post, I already thought that Dirk was better than Gasol, and than any other PF in the world for that matter, last year. As I said I had a lot of debates last year (on another forum) with some people who were trying to convince me that Gasol was CLEARLY the better player. Not only that but I also had a lot of debates with people who thought that Gasol was even better than Kobe which is more than ludicrous by the way...

As I said Dirk was just as good last year, people didn't notice it because of his teammates. That's all. Lots of people fail to realize that first the Mavs just had a major trade and Dirk's new teammates didn't have enough time to adapt to their new team, second that the arrival of Chandler clearly made them a better team (first time they have a legit center since... probably the 80's and James Donaldson if I don't forget anyone else...) and third Jason Kidd finally managed to adapt to the Mavs as well. The difference between this year's Mavs and last year is not Dirk, not at all (he was clearly the best player of the Mavs-Spurs series, by far) it's his teammates.

 

I'm gonna post the post in which I explained why Dirk was the best player. I won't give the link cause I posted that on CTS and the forum has been bought by another forum since, another forum that still exists (on which I do not post any longer...) so I don't want to spam. But the poster with whom I had this debate is now on OTR and I'm sure that he will confirm that I didn't make that up... Anyhow here is goes :

 

Originally Posted by Finch23 View Post

It's not a fact dude, how can you sit there and say that? Just because the dude scores a lot doesn't make him the best PF in the game today. As for Gasol how can you say he is not a leader? He led a Grizzlies team that had NOBODY on the team to the playoffs twice. I don't care who you are, when all you have is Mike Miller and Jason Williams as your 2nd and 3rd best players you are not going very far in the PO. Gasol turned the Lakers from a good team into a DOMINANT team. You question his leadership, yet you praise Dirk. What exactly has Dirk done? Led his team to the NBA finals where he "led" his team to choke a 2-0 game lead? He also "led" his team to one of the biggest upsets in NBA history.... Warriors. Seriously Dirk has had the teams to compete so it has never been "lack of talent" he is just not a GOOD LEADER.

 

This year the MAVS have had the best team they have had since I can remember but yet they are down 3-1 to an "old" Duncan team.

 

I think Dirk is a terrific player even if he does play for the Mavs, but if you think Dirk as a franchise player could lead a team like the Knicks, or Nets or any "big players" in the 2010 FA class to a championship you are crazy. He will NOT win a championship being a teams PRIMARY POST PLAYER.

Score a lot ? First of all Dirk is not only a scorer, certainly not, he is not a great defender, though he's better than what he used to be, but he's also a very good passer and rebounder, he does a lot of things on the court other than scoring. Well it's very simple this year Dirk was the 6th best player at the efficiency rating and he's actually second at the efficiency in the playoffs. So not he's not only a scorer. And yes he's the best PF in the game today, the only one who could be considered as better is Duncan but he's now too old and didn't have a great season, he was terrible in the second part of the season... I am sure that Dirk will be in the All NBA first team this year.

 

So you're telling me that Gasol is a good leader because he led a team to the first round of the playoffs ? How does that make any sense ? Plus you certainly have a short memory if you really think that there was nothing in those Grizzlies teams... First at the time Williams and Miller were way better than what they are now, Miller had his best seasons in Memphis and by far, plus he also had Wells, Posey, who was not just a role player/defender at the time, then Eddie Jones, Mighty Mouse and some very good athletic inside players who knew how to good the job done, like Swift who had his best years in Memphis. It is asinine to say that he had no help.

 

And I've never said that he was a bad leader actually, the problem is that he never proved himself, he never proved that he was a good leader contrary to Dirk. Pau proved that he was a terrific second leader since he's in LA, this role fits him perfectly, while he was constantly criticized when he was the Grizzlies leader. That's why for me Pau is not a leader, he found his true role, second leader or lieutenant in LA and he's gonna remain a second leader all his career IMO. By the way Gasol helped the Lakers but he didn't change them as much as people think, once again you have a short memory there, I would like to remind you that before the arrival of Gasol the Lakers were number one of the entire league that year. Until Bynum's injury. Yes they were already the best in the league before Gasol arrived. They starting to struggle when Bynum got injured. The arrival of Pau allowed them to get back to their best level.

 

Back to Dirk now yes there is no doubt that Dirk proved that he is a good leader. You asked me what he did ? I already told you what he did he led the Mavs to the playoffs every year since 2001, and he even led his team to the finals in 2006. This in the Western Conference which as we all know has been by far better than the Eastern the whole decade. And they beat the Spurs this year on their way to the finals, they beat the Spurs who were younger than they are now, the big three was at his best.

You're telling me that the Mavs are the best team this year ? Well first of all since the trade for Kidd the Mavs have never been the same (yet they beat the Spurs once again last year), the fact is that they were better with Harris. This year the team looked great on paper that's true, and Kidd has had his best seasons since his Nets days, and the newcomers seemed to fit quite well at first BUT and it's a big "but", they didn't play together for long. This trade has been made at the All Star break, it's not enough, the players don't know each other well enough. They didn't have enough time. That might explain why they're struggling. Plus the Spurs are playing way better than what they were playing in the regular season...

Also it's important to take in consideration that the best team on paper is not necessary the best team in fact, when you look at the best teams "on paper" of the last decade (02 Kings, 04 Lakers) they all didn't win a ring. Kobe and Shaq have all the help that they needed in 04, more than they had in 2000-02 yet they didn't win in 04, the "best team on paper" is not necessarily the best team.

 

Anyway it is totally ludicrous to blame Dirk only for that, I'm sorry but Dirk is doing his job. His teammates are rather the problem, Dirk is here in this playoffs, I repeat he's second at the efficiency rating, you can't blame Dirk only for that, it's totally unfair. And what about Barkley, Ewing, Baylor, Malone, Stockton, etc... they never won a ring too and had some great teams, are they bad leaders too ? You gotta understand that there are many thing to take in consideration to be a winner, and it's not because you never won a ring that you can be considered as a bad leader, it doesn't make any sense... You are just simplifying things, you don't even try to understand, that's your problem.

 

I would add that Dirk also proved that he was a great leader in the FIBA, it's very simple in the Germany national team he has no HELP whatsoever, you can trust me on that I know what I'm talking about, all his teammates are terrible players, I would include Chris Kaman by the way, Kaman has always been horrible in the FIBA so far, when he became German I was glad cause I thought that this team would get at least one other good players but NO HE'S MORE THAN HORRIBLE !!! So Nowitzki is alone, yet Germany has had quite some great results thanks to him, he has Michael Jordan kinds of performance with that team, he's doing absolutely everything and he makes his team WINS, I remember for example he led them to the 3rd place in the 2002 World Cup, and to the 2nd place in the 2005 Eurobasket, which I think that you can't realize that, which is literally AMAZING !!! That a team with not talent like that does something like that...

 

Plus this year in the NBA how many times did he hit clutch shots, how many time did he make his team win all by himself ?!! I have never seen Dirk as clutch as he is today. It is definitely unfair to blame him only for the troubles that the Mavs have against the Spurs now (the series ain't even over by the way, it will be over once one team wins 4 games and not before, it's imortant to be aware of that...)

 

No honestly it is impossible to say that Dirk is a bad leader now, he has definitely proved in both the FIBA and NBA that he is definitely a good leader.

 

So you can see for yourself that I did not forget anything indeed and didn't suddenly change my mind because of this year's Mavs..

 

By the way Finch, if the Mavs win the ring this year you certainly will look bad. You already do anyhow cause you can see for yourself now how great Dirk really is and that I was indeed right.

 

Anyway back to topic :

 

 

Second of all I have to precise that I was the first one to defend Gasol all year long. He's had some trouble this year but this can happen to anyone and I still definitely consider him as the second best PF in the game right now. I ain't gonna change my mind because of a few months struggling... However I may change my mind about it if this struggling continues next year... So no I did not base what I said on this year's Gasol.

 

The fact is that, as good as he is, Gasol is a second option. A great second option but nothing more than a second option. While Dirk is a proven leader. And it's there that the big difference between the two is, and that both player just cannot be compared. Dirk is CLEARLY the best power forward in the world.

 

 

Who do the Mavs have to stop LeBron? Because I cant see Marion or J-Kidd being able to slow him down because , like Dirk, he is on fire too. and I see D-wade going off this series too. I think The Heat have more options to stop Dirk than the Mavs have to stop D-wade and LeBron. I agree this will be an awesome series, but your not doing it justice by talking so highly of the Mavs and not giving credit to Miami. I still think Miami is a defensive force to be reckoned with because they are superior to The mavs in that aspect and will slow them down. And as for the scoring.. what are you talking about exactly? Miami has been scoring pretty well against the top tier defenses in Boston and Chicago. Mavs D is definitely not as good as theirs so i see it as Miami will be able to score more effectively and easily against the Mavs as well. I just think that your not giving the Heat enough credit and underestimating them tbh. Lets see if I'm wrong though! Either way, like you said, it will be a great series!

 

First of all it's not true to say that I didn't give any credit to Miami... I just gave my opinion on this match up and explained why I thought that the Mavs were currently the favorites. But I never denied that the Heat had clearly a chance to win this Finals. I clearly said it. I had my doubt on this team the whole year, but I never EVER denied that the Heat could win it all. I still have my doubts about them, for the reasons I gave. But they are a great team nonetheless and I definitely can't say that I would be surprised if they were this year's champs.

 

Second of all, about the scoring, well I never said that the Heat were horrible offensively or anything like that, I just said that I was not convinced by their offense. This first because that, if LeBron, Wade and Bosh have been quite efficient, the rest of the team is not enough implied in my opinion. Real Deal posted a thread in which he saw that the Big Three scored all the Miami pts in the end of the third and the ENTIRE fourth quarter. To most people it shows that those three alone can win it all... To me it shows two things : first that, as I just said above, the rest of the team is clearly not implied enough offensively, and second that it took the big three to be all at their best at the same time to win a game against a team that was at his worst... A team who's leader, ONLY reliable source offensively and who carried them on his shoulders all year long was just horrible in that game, yet without this big three performance, well the Heat would have lost that game. Well as the Mavs are clearly a better offensive team it would certainly not have been enough to win against them, besides the big three will not play at this level all the time..

 

And third, about the Mavs D, they didn't have such a good D as the Heat's but I definitely wouldn't say "definitely". Their defense is actually pretty good, clearly among the best in the league. And Miami's D been pretty impressive but I'm still not fully convinced by it as they didn't face any good offensive team so far. The Bulls, Sixers and Heat offense are among the worst in the league... The Mavs offense is much, much better and it's against them that we will see how good they truly are. That's all I said.

 

But anyhow yeah let's hope that we'll have a great series indeed.