Dirk's Legacy

[AboveLegit]

There's a thread about LeBron's legacy, so why not have one for the Finals MVP?

 

He becomes only the 4th player since 1952 to be the only All Star on his team to beat a team with 3 All Stars in the Finals. The other three were Hakeem Olajuwon in 1994, Isiah Thomas in 1989, and Rick Barry in 1975.

 

How far do you see him climbing up the list of greatest players? Where would you rank him currently? Top 20? Top 30? He's definitely a hall of famer, but I think given his list of accomplishments, he has a chance to really solidify himself as one of the greats as he nears the end of his career. He was already a top 10 PF ever before the season started, but do you think he's nearing the top 5 if he's able to pull off a couple of more historic seasons?

[ballorama]

NBA MVP, 10x All Star and counting, NBA Champion, Finals MVP. His resume is pretty nice now.. but as he climbs the all time scoring list he will be up there when its all set and done.

 

I'm thinking top 25 right now.. but that's just me.

[EastCoastNiner]

There's a thread about LeBron's legacy, so why not have one for the Finals MVP?

 

He becomes only the 4th player since 1952 to be the only All Star on his team to beat a team with 3 All Stars in the Finals. The other three were Hakeem Olajuwon in 1994, Isiah Thomas in 1989, and Rick Barry in 1975.

 

How far do you see him climbing up the list of greatest players? Where would you rank him currently? Top 20? Top 30? He's definitely a hall of famer, but I think given his list of accomplishments, he has a chance to really solidify himself as one of the greats as he nears the end of his career. He was already a top 10 PF ever before the season started, but do you think he's nearing the top 5 if he's able to pull off a couple of more historic seasons?

 

He's been a top 5 PF all-time for a while now.....

[AboveLegit]

He's been a top 5 PF all-time for a while now.....

Care to post a list?

[Real Deal]

Top five PF?

 

Duncan

Malone

Garnett

Barkley

McHale/Cardinal

 

I suppose I could make an argument for Dirk. There's no way I put him over Duncan and Malone, though.

[AboveLegit]

Top five PF?

 

Duncan

Malone

Garnett

Barkley

McHale/Cardinal

 

I suppose I could make an argument for Dirk. There's no way I put him over Duncan and Malone, though.

Where's Hayes or Petit?

[Real Deal]

Where's Hayes or Petit?

Pettit doesn't count. He played in the mid-50s to mid-60s, fewer players in the NBA, fewer teams, less athleticism, etc.

 

Elvin Hayes (unless you're talking about the behemoth Chuck Wagon Hayes) put up his best numbers in the late 60s and very early 70s. After the first few seasons of his career, he started producing more like a McHale, with far less efficiency.

 

By the numbers, I'm sure Pettit could be considered the greatest of all-time, but Wilt averaged 50 a game for a reason.

[Built Ford Tough]

He's been a top 5 PF all-time for a while now.....

 

I agree with this.

 

Why should a guy like Kevin McHale (who most people consider to be the 5th best PF in the game as far as I recall) be considered a greater player than Dirk just because he won 3 Championships as the 2nd best player on the team? I'd consider leading a team with no other All-Star players to a championship like Dirk did this year to be much greater than being the 2nd best player on 3 of championship teams, especially considering how great Larry Bird was.

 

Quite simply, Dirk has had a much greater career than McHale had, and even if Dirk fell short this season and never won a championship, I would still think that Dirk should be above McHale on the All-Time list considering the fact that he is, to put it bluntly, a better player now than McHale ever was.

 

It shouldn't take a championship to validate Dirk as a top 5 power forward to ever player the game. His career averages of 23/8.5/3 on 47.5/38/88 percentages (26/10.4/2.5 on 46.5/39/89 in the playoffs), his MVP award, his 10 straight All-Star games, his 11 All-NBA Teams (4 of them being First and 5 being Second) and leading his team to 11 straight 50 win seasons (and 3 of those were 60 wins including the 67 win season, good for 6th best in the history of the NBA) should be more than enough, especially when you consider he has never really played with anybody else who would be considered a superstar, and very few players who would even be considered All-Stars. Him adding an NBA Championship and Finals MVP to his resume is just the icing on the cake and, as far as I am concerned, he is without a doubt a top 5 power forward ever.

 

To be honest, there really shouldn't be any debate about the top 5 power forwards ever. I'm not normally one to belittle peoples opinions, but as far as I am concerned you are wrong if you don't consider the top 5 power forwards ever to be:

 

Tim Duncan

Karl Malone

Charles Barkley

Kevin Garnett

Dirk Nowitzki

 

The order of the 5 is certainly debatable (although I think it is quite obvious that Duncan is number 1), but the players certainly aren't.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Built Ford Tough

[Real Deal]

I think Kevin McHale gets considered because he was a far, far better defensive player than Dirk is, and he also knew how to play the low post. I don't really consider the rings, or else I wouldn't have Malone and CB on my list.

 

If Barkley wasn't such a damn good rebounder, well, he'd be lower on the list.

 

Dirk's range gets him the nod, if anything, as well as his primacy on the court.

 

So, really, it's a toss-up for me. Like I said, I could argue for Dirk in that top spot, especially after tonight, and the way he has been taking over those fourth quarters.

[AboveLegit]

Good point, I wasn't advocating placing Hayes or Petit in the top 5, I just wanted to know where they rank.

 

My major knock on Hayes is the same I have for Wilt, the inability to come up big in the clutch. He was a great talent (again, like Wilt), but lacked consistency when it came to clutch play, but to his credit, he did come up big on the back end of his career by having a good run in the postseason (albeit, fouling out in game 7 of the Finals - major choke), and coming up with a great postseason the following season. All of this coming after all the ridiculous amount of minutes he played.

 

My list:

1. Duncan

2. Malone

3. Garnett

4. Barkley

5. McHale

6. Dirk

7. Hayes

8. Rodman

9. Pettit

10. DeBusschere

[NomarFachix]

^you forgot Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason

[AboveLegit]

BFT, I actually agree with you, but McHale had some outstanding seasons. He shot 60% from the field twice in a row, was apart of three all defensive first teams, and was a great offensive rebounder. What's even more impressive is that his numbers are actually better in the postseason than in the regular season.

[Built Ford Tough]

I think Kevin McHale gets considered because he was a far, far better defensive player than Dirk is, and he also knew how to play the low post. I don't really consider the rings, or else I wouldn't have Malone and CB on my list.

 

If Barkley wasn't such a damn good rebounder, well, he'd be lower on the list.

 

Dirk's range gets him the nod, if anything, as well as his primacy on the court.

 

So, really, it's a toss-up for me. Like I said, I could argue for Dirk in that top spot, especially after tonight, and the way he has been taking over those fourth quarters.

 

He was better defensively than Dirk, that isn't debatable, but its not like McHale was a Duncan/Garnett type of defender either. You will have obviously seen more of McHale than I did as he announced his retirement in 93 and I was only born in 92, and I am sure you have watched more of his old games than I have, but from what I recall he was great defensively, but not the kind of player who you can argue to be the best defensive power forward ever, and I think you can definitely make the argument that Dirk is the best offensive power forward ever. McHale was more rounded when taking both ends of the floor into the equation, but being more well rounded doesn't make him a greater player than Dirk as far as I am concerned.

 

I don't really care about how good McHale was in the low post considering Dirk is the best shooting big man to ever play the game and arguably the best shooter to ever play the game regardless of position. At the end of the day, it shouldn't matter how you got the job done, but more about if you got the job done and Dirk consistently has gotten the job done as a primary option for basically his entire career. McHale's fancy low post moves were entertaining to watch, but they are still worth the same as one of Dirk's ugly one-footed fades.

 

It is worth noting that in 88-89 Bird missed basically the entire season and with McHale as the primary option the Celtics only managed to go 42-40 and were swept in the first round (although it was against the Pistons so you can definitely cut him some slack). Still though, that is a 15 game decrease despite the fact that the Celtics still had guys like Parrish, Reggie Lewis, Dennis Johnson and Danny Ainge (although he only played in 45 games himself). The next year Bird comes back and the Celtics win 52 games with pretty much the exact same team, minus Ainge.

 

I don't know, maybe I am bias as Dirk is probably my favourite player in the league (tied with Nash and DeRozan, but DeRozan is really only there because he is a Raptor lol) and is my favourite player ever outside of prime Vince Carter, but I honestly don't think that there is a debate between the two. Dirk was more talented, a better leader, the primary option for his entire career and has a more decorated resume.

[Built Ford Tough]

BFT, I actually agree with you, but McHale had some outstanding seasons. He shot 60% from the field twice in a row, was apart of three all defensive first teams, and was a great offensive rebounder. What's even more impressive is that his numbers are actually better in the postseason than in the regular season.

 

So are Dirk's, yet up until this season he was considered to be one of the biggest chokers of All-Time, and Dirk's playoff numbers are substantially better than McHale's. Dirk is one of like 5 players in NBA history to average 25/10 for his playoff career, so I really don't see that as an argument.

 

McHale also had his two 60% shooting seasons alongside a prime Larry Bird and many other great players. One season after his 2nd 60% shooting year, Bird went down with injuries which forced McHale into a primary offensive role and his efficiency dropped by roughly 5% and his scoring stayed even at 22 a game. McHale's two 60% shooting seasons can also be easily countered, at least in my opinion, by Dirk's two 50/40/90 seasons (technically it is only one, but this year he went 52/39.3/89.2, so sue me).

 

Don't get me wrong, McHale had a great career. I'm not trying to argue otherwise, he would probably be 6th on my list of power forwards but his career was not as great as Dirk's is now, and Dirk is only going to add more 50 win seasons, more All-Star appearances, more All-NBA Team selections and, who knows, maybe another Championship and Finals MVP or two.

[Nitro]

There is no question that Dirk should be ahead of McHale IMO. McHale was a (much) better defender, but that's it. Dirk's a far better #1 option scorer, arguably a better rebounder, a better passer, much better clutch scorer, and he has more longevity and individual accolades. Also, Dirk's still going as strong as ever, so he will only continue to build on his career.

 

I'd say BFT had it right...Duncan, Barkley, Malone and KG should be ahead of Dirk, but that's it.

[Real Deal]

They made a convincing argument about Dirk being ahead of KG on First Take this morning. Look at what KG wasn't able to do in Minnesota...simple as that.

 

Plus, if we're going to give Dirk the edge over McHale because he's a better scorer, and dismissing the huge advantage on the defensive end, we might as well do the same to Kevin Garnett, who was less efficient than McHale, not even close to the scorer Dirk has been, and yet plays/played elite defense.

[EastCoastNiner]

They made a convincing argument about Dirk being ahead of KG on First Take this morning. Look at what KG wasn't able to do in Minnesota...simple as that.

 

Plus, if we're going to give Dirk the edge over McHale because he's a better scorer, and dismissing the huge advantage on the defensive end, we might as well do the same to Kevin Garnett, who was less efficient than McHale, not even close to the scorer Dirk has been, and yet plays/played elite defense.

 

I was going to say that I would consider putting Dirk over KG, and I think Dirk will continue his greatness for the foreseeable future and cement himself as a better player then KG when all is said and done.

[AboveLegit]

They made a convincing argument about Dirk being ahead of KG on First Take this morning. Look at what KG wasn't able to do in Minnesota...simple as that.

 

I don't agree with that logic at all. Garnett clearly has the better resume, and despite what Dirk did with this year's Mavs, he always had more help when KG was on the Wolves.

 

Despite his supporting cast being decent enough players at the time (well, with the exception of Nesterovic), they still don't match up against what Dirk had earlier in his career... Finley, Nash, and Van Exel, or even a healthy Lafrentz. The thing is the Mavericks could survive Nowitzki having a bad game at that point in time as long as Finley and Nash were playing well, Garnett had to play perfect, which also included getting the rest of his team involved, protecting the basket and controlling the boards. All Nowitzki had to worry about at the time was scoring, everything else was a bonus.

 

People still remember his playoff experiences, especially in 2006, he's always been a good clutch player, but the Mavs have been upset by inferior teams in the playoffs many times.

[Nitro]

Plus, if we're going to give Dirk the edge over McHale because he's a better scorer, and dismissing the huge advantage on the defensive end, we might as well do the same to Kevin Garnett, who was less efficient than McHale, not even close to the scorer Dirk has been, and yet plays/played elite defense.

 

Completely different circumstances. Garnett was a far better rebounder and passer than McHale or Dirk ever were, has an MVP like Dirk (which McHale wasn't ever really close to), and has a DPOY which neither of those players have. Also, even though it's way overlooked in these debates, Garnett was probably the most versatile player in NBA history...could run an offense out of the post or at the top of the key (not extremely well for the latter, but he could still do it sufficiently), could score in face-ups or post-ups, was arguably the best rebounder in the league at one point, and could legitimately defend all 5 positions when he was in his prime. He wasn't a great 1st scoring option, but everything else he did much better than Dirk and McHale.

[Oliver P]

I think that this year will definitely have an impact on Dirk's legacy. Not only because he finally won a ring but rather because of the WAY he won it. As a matter of fact Dirk's level has been very impressive in the playoffs, and due to the level at which he played while making his team win, everyone who doubted his leadership have now no case against him. As I already said it though, Dirk's been playing that way since the last couple of years. The only problem is that he didn't have the help that he needed to get a ring.. But now that his teammates finally adapted to the team and that they got this summer the missing piece (Chandler) Dirk had the opportunity to SHOW how terrific a leader he really is. And so he did.

 

Dirk's performance this year was really astounding, especially when we consider the fact that, as ABL said it, only three other stars led their team to the ring while being surrounded by no All Star : Barry, Olajuwon and Thomas. However it's important to consider that Thomas had for teammates Dumars and Rodman, who both became All Star the following year. And also Bill Laimbeer who was a multiple All Star as well, and was still playing at his best at the time, even if he wasn't All Star that year. Besides Dumars and Rodman were both in the All Defensive first team that year, and Dumars was an All NBA third team the two following years, and All NBA second team in 93. Besides we all know that Dumars is one of the best defensive guards ever (Jordan even said that only him and Blackman could have an impact on his game). And on top of that Dumars was actually the Finals MVP in 89. So when we consider all of this we can definitely see that Thomas had more help than Nowitzki.

Then Rick Barry had Wilkes, who was a fantastic player and became All Star the following year. So that's a better option than Dirk had this year.

Basically what I'm saying is that only Hakeem did what Dirk do this year in fact, only Hakeem made his team win with that "little" help. Which definitely gives even more credit to Dirk.

 

Now about McHale, well it's true that Kevin was a better defender than Dirk but Dirk is not a shitty defender as he was at the beginning of his career... During the Avery Johnson days Dirk definitely became a much better defender. And if he ain't, and will never be, great defender, it's at the same time impossible to say that he's not a good one, Dirk is alright. And he's a much better scorer than McHale ever was. I loved McHale, he had fantastic post moves, but he still can't compare to someone like Dirk offensively. No one has ever mastered the mid range jump shot as well as Dirk in the history of the game, except Larry Bird IMO. Dirk can score from anywhere on the court. Besides, as it's already been said, Dirk is a much, MUCH better leader than Kevin ever was, McHale had a shot to show what he could do as leader when Bird was injured in the 89 season and he didn't show much... Of course the team was less talented as Bird was out, but there were still enough talented players (Lewis, Parish, Shaw, DJ) to lead this team beyond the first round. The fact is that McHale was a second option. One of the best second option, but still nothing more than a second option. And that is just not enough to compare him with Dirk.

 

Then about Garnett, well I'd say that KG was the best player of the two IF we're talking about pure talent. As it's been mentioned again, KG is one of the most versatile player ever, in fact he was the LeBron James of his time. The dude could do everything on the court, great post moves, great ball handler, great defender, great rebounder, very good passer and shot blocker, etc... His only "weakness" was his jump shot, but he was still quite a good shooter though. Like LeBron he could do everything, he was even more versatile than him as he had a back to the basket game. He could play every position on the court. BUT the fact is that, again like LeBron, he was very criticized from his lack of leadership and clutchness in his Minnesota days. Even more than LeBron actually... The fact is that the dude couldn't make his team go beyond the first round for seven years in a row. And he had good enough teammates to get his team to a higher level. At the beginning of his career he had Marbury and Gugliotta (Googs had his best days in Minnesota and Marbury was by far better than what he was when he landed in Phoenix and New York). Then he had Terrell Brandon (a fantastic PG), Joe Smith (who played the best basketball of his career in Minnesota) and Szczerbiak (had also his best days as a Wolves), Chauncey Billups... And it's in 2004 with Spree and Cassell (Spree got back to his best level that year, and Cassell had the best season of his career) that he had his best shot to win a ring. He finally managed to lead his team to the WCF but failed... It's true that Sam I Am got injured in those WCF. And this alone was enough to have a big impact on the team. But why is that ? Again because KG was not the leader that he was supposed to be, and in fact Sam was the REAL go to guy of the team at the time. And after that year KG never even managed to lead his team to the playoffs again, this despite the fact that he was surrounded by "good enough" player like Cassell, Wally, Spree (even if he started to decrease that year, mainly because he considered himself underpaid...), the surprising sixth man Hudson, and Hassell who was a very good defender, then later Davis, Blount, McCants, Foye, Smith, or Mike James... Sure I'm not saying that this team was good enough for a ring, but definitely good enough to make the playoffs.

Anyway honestly, as great as KG was, he wasn't in his Minnesota days the player that he later became in Boston. He started to decrease in Boston, but he became much better in the clutch. He had way more energy than he ever had as the first option in Minnesota. And he finally managed to win a ring. But still not as a first option.. Cause, even if KG was clutch at times, Pierce was definitely the leader of the team, the go to guy. The fact is that KG never really succeed as a leader. Contrary to Dirk. And that is why I personally definitely put Dirk over him. Besides, in terms of pure talent, Dirk is right behind him, he's a much better scorer and shooter, as good a passer (it's not because that you don't have a lot of APG that you're a bad passer, Dirk's passing abilities are among the best we ever saw for an inside player) and ball handler. The only areas in which KG is clearly better than him are in defense. He's a better rebounder too but not by far, Dirk is a very efficient rebounder as well.

Oh and ABL it is definitely not true to say that the only thing that Dirk had to do in the early 2000's was scoring. It's actually the opposite, at the time the team was only about offense, and there was no one inside. Dirk had to play center many times. His best rebounding days were at those times anyhow, that's no coincidence. Besides it's not true that his teammates was much better than KG's as well, slithgly better yes, but not that much... Nash was definitely not the player that he became in Phoenix (thanks to D'Antoni's system) afterwards, at the time he was considered as a good PG but no more. Finley was a very good scorer but he never was a superstar and wasn't a very good defender... LaFrentz was just a shooter. He played center because of his side but he was no center. The Mavs never had a good center before the arrival of Chandler anyhow, Wang Zhi Zhi and Bradley even had to start in that team... They've always been terrible inside since the Donaldson, Tarpley and Perkins days. As for Nick, he was washed up when he arrived in Dallas. He could still be efficient in the clutch but he was no where the level he was playing at in LA. Those Dallas teams were actually all about scoring, so Dirk had to focus on other areas more than now, which is why he had more RPG, APG, BPG and SPG anyhow.

 

As for Petit and Hayes, well Petit had huge numbers but it was another time... And the only year that he won his ring, well Cliff Hagan was the best player in the playoffs anyway. Same for Hayes, the only time he won his ring, Unseld was Finals MVP. So it hurts both their impact.

 

As for Malone and Barkley, well I love those two players, but the fact is that they never had such a great performance as Dirk in the playoffs this year. I watched them at their prime, and they were terrific players, but none of them was as clutch as Dirk is. The only PF who played at such a high level as Dirk this year while being such a great leader was Duncan in 2003. When he had unbelievable performances in the playoffs... This is why the only PF that I would put over Dirk for sure is Tim Duncan. Dirk can arguably be considered as the second best PF ever. Besides among all the stars I followed, only Jordan and Kobe were as clutch shooters as Dirk was this year.

Besides we can add that only two PFs in the NBA history won the Finals MVP, they are, of course, Duncan and Dirk. So it gives more credit to both as the two best PFs ever.

 

So basically I would put Duncan at first, Dirk at second, then it's IMO arguable between Barkley, Malone and KG.

[Real Deal]

I can't put Dirk over Malone. There's nothing that convinces me to. Duncan and Malone are #1 and #2. If Malone wasn't an exceptional defender, scorer AND rebounder, it would be different...but overall game, Dirk doesn't touch him. Nowitzki may have played better defense this season, but it wasn't even close to what Malone was doing, and while Dirk can shoot lights out, Malone was just as unstoppable.

 

Championships are for teams, not individuals. Malone would've had two if it wasn't for the Chicago Bulls and Mike, and it didn't help that he was also playing in eras with Magic and the Lakers, Hakeem and the Rockets, Kemp/Payton and the Sonics, teams that were so well-constructed and led by dominant players, they were offensive and/or defensive juggernauts in the playoffs.

[Real Deal]

Let me just put it this way: if Dirk's Mavs played the 1997 or 1998 Bulls, Dirk wouldn't have a Finals MVP, and he wouldn't have a ring. Rodman would've taken care of part of that, and Jordan/Pippen would've handled the other part.

[Oliver P]

^Well we cannot that for sure though... Do I believe that the Mavs would have beat the Bulls ? No, I do not. But still we just can't know...

 

Anyway as I said in my post it's not this ring alone that makes me put Dirk upthere but rather the way he won it. Again in the past only Hakeem managed to make his team win with no true second option... That certainly gives more credit to Dirk. Especially that he made his team win against a team that was much better on paper. When Malone led his Jazz to the Finals he had much better teammates than Dirk this year. And Dirk's performances in the clutch were just better than Barkley and Malone ever did.

 

But it's hard to tell as Dirk never played against Malone or Barkley at their prime... Anyway I want to precise that I said in my post that Dirk was "arguably" the second best PF ever. I personally put him there (because I like him too much maybe haha) but I definitely agree that it's arguable. I think a case can be made for Malone at second indeed, I have no problem with that. But I also believe that a case can definitely be made for Dirk as well.

[Nitro]

Anyway as I said in my post it's not this ring alone that makes me put Dirk upthere but rather the way he won it. Again in the past only Hakeem managed to make his team win with no true second option... That certainly gives more credit to Dirk. Especially that he made his team win against a team that was much better on paper. When Malone led his Jazz to the Finals he had much better teammates than Dirk this year. And Dirk's performances in the clutch were just better than Barkley and Malone ever did.

 

Don't discount the teammates Dirk had this season...a HoF PG past his prime but still very effective and important (Kidd), a 6th man of the year candidate (Terry), a DPOY candidate (Chandler), another former All-Star (Marion), and a few other very good role players (Barea, Haywood, Stevenson, etc...). It's true that he didn't have a true 2nd option, but he had a number of players capable of playing that role on any given night.

 

I can't put Dirk over Duncan, Barkley, Malone or KG. Anyone else, sure, but not those 4. They were all a lot more multi-faceted than Dirk and could dominate in ways Dirk can't.

 

PS- In no way, shape or form is Dirk as good of a passer as KG. Unfortunately there aren't a ton of videos of his passes online, but KG can be argued as one of the 2-3 best passing big men of all-time. Dirk is adequate, but I wouldn't even put him ahead of Shaq as far as passing ability. Some KG videos...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkfZLUodkkA

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5FdzU4PYwQ

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1q_dizKCbE

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYvaWxUjr-0

 

Also, KG could pass out of the post, off of passes during drives to the rim, or like a PG at the top of the key, which he did often in Minnesota.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Nitro

[Oliver P]

Don't discount the teammates Dirk had this season...a HoF PG past his prime but still very effective and important (Kidd), a 6th man of the year candidate (Terry), a DPOY candidate (Chandler), another former All-Star (Marion), and a few other very good role players (Barea, Haywood, Stevenson, etc...). It's true that he didn't have a true 2nd option, but he had a number of players capable of playing that role on any given night.

 

When exactly did I "discount" his teammates ? I actually said the opposite, I said that this year Dirk finally had the teammates he needed to be able to show what kind of player he truly was. So it clearly means that his teammates are good. It's the same for Hakeem in 94, you cannot win by yourself anyway, basketball is a collective game... It would be totally asinine to think the opposite.

 

But the fact still remains that among his teammates, none of them, and I emphasize NONE, was even close to be an All Star this year. Kidd can still be good but he's not even close to the superstar he once was (how many bad passes did he do in the playoffs this year ? He's had some great plays, some great clutch shots and still bring a lot to the team but he's not the Kidd he used to be, that's a fact). Terry is a very good sixth man but he never was even close to be an All Star. Chandler is a very good defender and was a DOY candidate, yes, but we all know that he's not, and will never be All Star material. And Marion was not even close to be the player that he used to be in Phoenix, since he left the Suns... He got back to a better level but he will never be back to the level at which he played in Phoenix, that's for sure. He's now just an above average role player.

 

And yes he had a number of players capable of playing that role on any give night (just like Hakeem in 94, Horry, Smith or Mad Max could get on fire any time), I know that, I said it myself many times. I even said it not so long ago when someone told me that "Dallas had nothing"... Again he has good teammates, no one is denying that. But still it's not the same than having a TRUE second option. Someone you know you can count on every night. What happens if all of those players struggle at the same time ? Well it in fact happened during the Finals. In the first four games all of Dirk's teammates struggled and didn't play to the level expected. It's only in games 5 and 6 that Terry (who's supposed to be the second option anyhow) and Barea woke up at the same time. Well what was the result after those four games ? 2-2. That gives even more credit to Dirk...

 

The fact is that, Dirk had real good teammates, definitely good enough to win a ring, but he still won a ring with less help overall than most of the superstars of the past. And the way he played during all the fourth quaters in the playoffs, especially in teh WCF and Finals is just unreal.

 

 

I can't put Dirk over Duncan, Barkley, Malone or KG. Anyone else, sure, but not those 4. They were all a lot more multi-faceted than Dirk and could dominate in ways Dirk can't.

 

In ways Dirk can't ? Really ? Yet I have seen all those players play at their prime and I never saw any of them having the kind of performances that Dirk had this year... Except for Tim, who had huge performances in 2003 as I said.

But anyway I have never seen those players dominate in the fourth like Dirk did that year. And hit so many clutch shots. Never.

Now I agree with Duncan at number 1. I said it myself. But I'm not so sure about Barkley and Malone. It's definitely arguable.

 

As for KG, as I said in terms of pure talent I agree that he was better but the fact that he never was the leader that Dirk is, and succeeded only as a second option, is definitely not enough to make him a better player than Dirk. I already talked about all of this in my post and ain't gonna repeat myself anyhow, I think I was clear enough... No doubt Dirk is above him in my mind.

Oh and about that you don't need to show me a video to convince that KG is a good passer... First a video doesn't prove anything (I could show videos of Mike missing a clutch shot to "prove" that he was not a clutch shoter for example...) and second I already know that he is a very good passer... He is definitely one. But the fact is that Dirk is a great passer as well. And I don't see how you can even deny that... I followed Dirk all his career with Dallas and the Germany team and I can tell you that he's a fantastic passer indeed. Alright I can accept that someone tells me that KG is "slightly" better passer than Dirk if you wish... But definitely not by far, Dirk's passing abilities are amazing.

Oh and Shaq is one of the best passers, among the big men, I ever saw.

 

Back to Malone and Barkley, well in fact everyone agrees that Dirk's main weakness has always been his defense. Well it's the exact same for Barkley. He was heavily criticized in this area during his career. And, as already been stated, Dirk has been way better defensively lately. So a strong case can definitely be made for Dirk. As he's much better than Barkley offensively and in the clutch.

 

Another important thing to consider, which hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet, is longevity. Barkley started to decrease at the age of 30 (he even started to talk about retirement at that age... And kept talking about that every year until he eventually retired...). KG started to decrease at the age of 31. While Dirk, at the age of 32 (almost 33), is just playing the best basketball of his career. Better than ever. Very important to consider that as well if you want to be consider among the very best IMO.

 

Anyway because all of these reasons, the one who has the strongest case against Dirk, for number 2, is Karl Malone. Cause, contrary to Barkley and KG, Malone was at the same time a very good leader, good defender, and also was still at his best, and in fact was even playing the best basketball of his career (like Dirk) at the age of 32-33. But still even Malone didn't have the kind of performances that Dirk had in the fourth quarter in this year's playoffs... And again Dirk was already this clutch and that good of a leader those past couple of years, he just had this time a real opportunity to prove it.

 

So basically I definitely think that the best PF is Duncan, and that at second it's arguable between Malone and Dirk. Then it's Barkley and KG (a case could still be made for Barkley, but definitely not KG IMO).