Dirk's Legacy

[Nitro]

In ways Dirk can't ? Really ? Yet I have seen all those players play at their prime and I never saw any of them having the kind of performances that Dirk had this year... Except for Tim, who had huge performances in 2003 as I said.

But anyway I have never seen those players dominate in the fourth like Dirk did that year. And hit so many clutch shots. Never.

Now I agree with Duncan at number 1. I said it myself. But I'm not so sure about Barkley and Malone. It's definitely arguable.

 

Yes, dominate in ways Dirk can't. Dirk was AMAZING this post-season, no doubt...however there were still things he did not do well. He grabbed over 10 boards only 3x in the first 15 games of the post-season (and he's never grabbed 10RPG or more in any regular season). Even though he's an improved, passable defender, he's still the worst defensive player in the Mavs starting lineup and the guy other team's target in PnR situations. And yes, he's a good passer, but when teams throw a hard double at him he still doesn't handle it well and is prone to turnovers (see- end of Game 3 vs. the Heat).

 

Barkley, in his prime, was actually scoring more on greater efficiency than Dirk ever has. That's not to say he was necessarily a better scorer, but the difference is minimal. However, Barkley can be argued as one of the greatest rebounders of all-time, and could literally dominate a game on the glass...something Dirk cannot. In that 1993 post-season where he brought the Suns to the Finals, he had 8 games with over 15 boards, and 2 triple-doubles. Which brings me to he was also a very, very good passer as well. Also, if you want to see how dominating and clutch he was that season the Suns made the Finals, look at his 44pt/24reb Game 7 against the Sonics in the WCF...I actually think I posted a video of that on here a year ago.

 

Malone was just as good of a scorer as Dirk, a far better defensive player (even when he was on the Lakers where he gave Duncan fits in the conference semi's), a better rebounder, and comparable passer.

 

As for KG, as I said in terms of pure talent I agree that he was better but the fact that he never was the leader that Dirk is, and succeeded only as a second option, is definitely not enough to make him a better player than Dirk. I already talked about all of this in my post and ain't gonna repeat myself anyhow, I think I was clear enough... No doubt Dirk is above him in my mind.

Oh and about that you don't need to show me a video to convince that KG is a good passer... First a video doesn't prove anything (I could show videos of Mike missing a clutch shot to "prove" that he was not a clutch shoter for example...) and second I already know that he is a very good passer... He is definitely one. But the fact is that Dirk is a great passer as well. And I don't see how you can even deny that... I followed Dirk all his career with Dallas and the Germany team and I can tell you that he's a fantastic passer indeed. Alright I can accept that someone tells me that KG is "slightly" better passer than Dirk if you wish... But definitely not by far, Dirk's passing abilities are amazing.

Oh and Shaq is one of the best passers, among the big men, I ever saw.

 

When KG was stuck on the Wolves he was stuck on some of the all-time worst teams in NBA history. For years he had Wally Z and a mix of Trenton Hassell and other average-at-best role players. He was forced to do more for those teams than Dirk has ever had to do with the Mavs just to get them into the playoffs...score 20-25PPG, lead the league in rebounding (did it 4 years in a row), lead all big-men in assists, and play elite defense, as well as be the team's emotional leader. Doing all that got them into the playoffs where they would routinely face the Kobe/Shaq Lakers in the first round, without HCA. His prime was wasted. The one year he had a realistic chance to win a championship his 2nd option/#1 perimeter player went down in the 2nd round. And after that happened, it was basically him and Spree with a few average role players against the Kobe/Shaq+GP/Malone Lakers.

 

Speaking of what KG did with the Celtics during his one championship run, do you think Dirk could have done what KG did? That's a prime example of why I put so much value into the other areas of the game besides scoring/clutch scoring. That season KG had one of the greatest defensive seasons in NBA history (winning DPOY in the process), was putting in around 20PPG, cleaning the glass, his passing was one of the things that made that offense click, and as everyone knows he was that team's emotional leader and the person who got everyone to buy into what became one of the greatest defenses in NBA history. Even if he wasn't the team's clutch scorer, he was still the team's best player (even though Pierce was stellar that post-season as well).

 

And I've seen both play pretty much their entire primes, and I can't believe anyone would say Dirk is close to be as good of a passer as KG. I tried showing you video evidence (passes that you just don't see Dirk being able to make) and stats to prove what I've been seeing the last 10+ years, which is that KG is very clearly the better passer. I can't believe I'm even arguing that.

 

Another important thing to consider, which hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet, is longevity. Barkley started to decrease at the age of 30 (he even started to talk about retirement at that age... And kept talking about that every year until he eventually retired...). KG started to decrease at the age of 31. While Dirk, at the age of 32 (almost 33), is just playing the best basketball of his career. Better than ever. Very important to consider that as well if you want to be consider among the very best IMO.

 

I think that's a fair point, but you can't go by age. KG was drafted and played right out of high school, and so far has played in 200 more games (2 1/2 seasons) than Dirk has so far. With Barkley that is an extremely good point, though.

[Oliver P]

Yes, dominate in ways Dirk can't. Dirk was AMAZING this post-season, no doubt...however there were still things he did not do well. He grabbed over 10 boards only 3x in the first 15 games of the post-season (and he's never grabbed 10RPG or more in any regular season). Even though he's an improved, passable defender, he's still the worst defensive player in the Mavs starting lineup and the guy other team's target in PnR situations. And yes, he's a good passer, but when teams throw a hard double at him he still doesn't handle it well and is prone to turnovers (see- end of Game 3 vs. the Heat).

 

But that is not his role to grab boards. Dirk plays in the perimeter, the main strenght of his game is his mid range jump shot, which he masters to perfection, so it's definitely normal that he does not take more rebounds... He has teammates who came on the team for that anyhow, like Chandler mainly, he does not need to focus on rebounds any more, that does mean that he does not rebound well.. In the past, when Dallas had no one inside, he definitely showed that he was a very good rebounder. Besides he was quite alright this year as well, in his last game for example, when he struggle for the most part of the game he decided to rather focus on rebounds and grabbed 11 ones.. He just did not grab more rebounds because he did not need to. So it's totally unfair to blame him for that.

 

The fact is that Dirk played at a level in the fourth quarter during the playoffs, especially in the WCF and Finals, that was absolutely unbelievable, that's something that the other PFs never did. And that alone would be enough to put Dirk in the discussion for best PF ever (even if as I said I would rather put him at second-third personally).

 

 

Barkley, in his prime, was actually scoring more on greater efficiency than Dirk ever has. That's not to say he was necessarily a better scorer, but the difference is minimal. However, Barkley can be argued as one of the greatest rebounders of all-time, and could literally dominate a game on the glass...something Dirk cannot. In that 1993 post-season where he brought the Suns to the Finals, he had 8 games with over 15 boards, and 2 triple-doubles. Which brings me to he was also a very, very good passer as well. Also, if you want to see how dominating and clutch he was that season the Suns made the Finals, look at his 44pt/24reb Game 7 against the Sonics in the WCF...I actually think I posted a video of that on here a year ago.

 

Minimal, maybe, I agree with that, but still the fact is that Dirk is a better scorer than Barkley was. And I definitely agree that Barkley is one of the best rebounders of All Time, definitely better than Dirk in that area, he wasn't called the Round Mound of Rebound for nothing, but that's actually the only thing that he did better than Dirk. In the other areas, either Dirk is better, either it's a draw between the two.

And yes Barkley could be dominating and clutch, I never denied that, I actually have always considered Barkley as a very good leader, but all I'm saying is that Dirk is even more clutch and a better leader than him.

 

 

Malone was just as good of a scorer as Dirk, a far better defensive player (even when he was on the Lakers where he gave Duncan fits in the conference semi's), a better rebounder, and comparable passer.

 

I agree with all of these except for the scoring part... Malone was a very efficient scorer but the main difference between the two is that, contrary to Karl, Dirk is a NATURAL scorer. As a matter of fact Malone was not a very good scorer at the beginning of his career, he didn't have a very good jump shot. But he worked very hard and developped a very good and reliable jump shot. And became also a much better FT shooter (he was like Shaq in that area at the beginning of his career). While Dirk is a natural shooter and scorer. He's just a gifted shooter. That is why he is overall a better scorer.

 

 

When KG was stuck on the Wolves he was stuck on some of the all-time worst teams in NBA history. For years he had Wally Z and a mix of Trenton Hassell and other average-at-best role players. He was forced to do more for those teams than Dirk has ever had to do with the Mavs just to get them into the playoffs...score 20-25PPG, lead the league in rebounding (did it 4 years in a row), lead all big-men in assists, and play elite defense, as well as be the team's emotional leader. Doing all that got them into the playoffs where they would routinely face the Kobe/Shaq Lakers in the first round, without HCA. His prime was wasted. The one year he had a realistic chance to win a championship his 2nd option/#1 perimeter player went down in the 2nd round. And after that happened, it was basically him and Spree with a few average role players against the Kobe/Shaq+GP/Malone Lakers.

 

I never said that he had very good teammates, but he had better teammates than the ones you mentioned... I already talked about that in my post so I ain't gonna repeat myself. Dirk's teammates were better, never said the opposite, but not THAT better... The fact is that his teammates were still good enough, most of the time, to pass the first round of the playoffs. It's just impossible to blame his teammates for not making it to the second round for seven years in a row...

It is very important to be aware that KG was SEVERALY criticized at the time for his lack of leadership and clutchness. That most people considered him as a player who only cared about his money and didn't care enough about winning...

As I already said, in 2004 (the only year that KG's Wolves passed the first round so) the big difference in that team was Sam Cassell. Why ? Because he brought to that team something that they didn't have before, CLUTCHNESS AND LEADERSHIP. That's right, that year the real go to guy of the team, the one who had the ball in his hands when they were in trouble was Sam Cassell. That clearly shows what kind of player KG was at the time.

 

By the way routinely face the Lakers ? They only faced them once... And it was in 2003, the year in which the Lakers were not even close to what they were the year before, that Kobe and Shaq hated them more than ever (they didn't like each other before but Jax could keep them under control... until that year), that Horry couldn't hit a shot (many people thought he was done... I was one of them, I was definitely wrong though lol), and the year they didn't succeed to get some good veterans the summer before for the first time (I even think that Jannero Pargo is the only new player they got that year..). This year that team was only Kobe, Shaq and the three superfriends... and George... So it was definitely the best year for Minnesota to face them.

 

Speaking about that, that reminds me that the Mavs and Wolves faced each other once in the first round. And that year KG definitely had a good team, his teammates were Brandon (again once of the best PGs I ever seen, very underrated player), Joe Smith (again he had his best years and by far in Minnesota), Szczerbiak (who was at his best as well), Billups and good players like Peeler and Gary Trent (I liked this player at the time, not a star but he was a solid PF). And I clearly remember that many people thought that Wolves had a great chance to beat Dallas that year... Cause they had all what they needed to beat them, and they were quite good defensively contrary to Dallas... Well not only Dallas destroyed them but Dirk just ate KG alive. Literally. And I clearly remember how KG was criticized at the time... Even more than usual. And how everyone praised Dirk already for being a great leader. It was already very clear that Dirk was a better leader than KG.

 

 

Speaking of what KG did with the Celtics during his one championship run, do you think Dirk could have done what KG did? That's a prime example of why I put so much value into the other areas of the game besides scoring/clutch scoring. That season KG had one of the greatest defensive seasons in NBA history (winning DPOY in the process), was putting in around 20PPG, cleaning the glass, his passing was one of the things that made that offense click, and as everyone knows he was that team's emotional leader and the person who got everyone to buy into what became one of the greatest defenses in NBA history. Even if he wasn't the team's clutch scorer, he was still the team's best player (even though Pierce was stellar that post-season as well).

 

No I don't think could have done what KG done, obviously as he's not as good a defender... And now about today's Mavs, do you think that KG could have done what Dirk did ? That's a prime example of why I put so much value into clutchness and leadership...

KG had a fantastic season that year, there is no doubt about that, but he was still the second option. Paul Pierce was the leader. In term of pure talent KG was certainly the best player, but pure talent is not enough... And overall, as he was the leader of the team, we definitely can consider Pierce as the best player of the team overall. Pierce won the Finals MVP. And many argued that this trophy could have gone to Ray Ray (it's true that Ray was fantastic and could have won it as well) while no one thinks that KG could have won it... That says much.

 

 

And I've seen both play pretty much their entire primes, and I can't believe anyone would say Dirk is close to be as good of a passer as KG. I tried showing you video evidence (passes that you just don't see Dirk being able to make) and stats to prove what I've been seeing the last 10+ years, which is that KG is very clearly the better passer. I can't believe I'm even arguing that.

 

I said it, I agree with you that he's the best passer. I just don't agree with the "by far"... That's all. You said it yourself, Dirk is a better passer than McHale, so if KG is BY FAR better a passer than Dirk what does that make McHale ? A terrible passer ? McHale was a less good passer than Dirk and KG, I agree with that, definitely, but he was not a bad passer, Kevin was a good passer nonetheless. So the "by far" is definitely exaggerated. But you're right KG is a better passer though, I agree with you.

 

 

I think that's a fair point, but you can't go by age. KG was drafted and played right out of high school, and so far has played in 200 more games (2 1/2 seasons) than Dirk has so far. With Barkley that is an extremely good point, though.

 

Well in fact Dirk was drafted at the same age as KG. Exactly. Actually Dirk was EXACTLY one month older than Garnett when he played his first game in the league, but they were both 20. So at the same age as Dirk now, KG had just played the exact same amount of seasons, 13 to be precised. So no the argument doesn stand here.

 

 

But anyway I personally think that you give too much importance to versatility. It is not because you are better in more areas that you are necessarily the better player... Let's take Jordan's example for instance. Is he the most versatile player ever ? Definitely not. Pippen was better in most area, Pip was a better shooter, defender, rebounder, passer and stealer than Jordan. The only thing that Jordan did better than Pippen was scoring. So by this logic we would have to say that Pip was therefore a better player.. But the fact is that, and we all know that (I hope so at least) Jordan was the better player nonetheless. Why ? Because of his clutchness and leadership, two areas in which Jordan was BY FAR better than Pippen.

 

And right here is the reason why I give such a great importance to clutchness and leadership. That's the difference between the captain and the Lieutenant. And in terms of clutchness and leadership, there is no doubt that Dirk has done something that none of the other PFs mentioned ever done, only Tim Duncan had such an unbelivable performance, in 2003 (he dominated as much as Shaq that year, that was very impressive) and that is why that in that case, Duncan's defense can be used to determine who's the better of the two. In the case of Malone for example, who was a better defender than Dirk as well, and also had longevity, well he could be argued as second but the fact remains that he never had such a great performance. And that is why in that case I still put Dirk ahead of him (it's definitely arguable though as I already said). While in Barkley's case, not only did he not have such an amazing performance (again very few players had) but he was not a better defender and didn't have longevity.. I think that's enough to put Dirk ahead of him. And now about KG, he was a better defender than Dirk, true, but he didn't have longevity, never had such an unbelievable performance as well and was definitely not the leader and clutch player that Dirk is. He never was. Which is why I put him at number 5, on that list.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Oliver P

[kingfish]

Let me just put it this way: if Dirk's Mavs played the 1997 or 1998 Bulls, Dirk wouldn't have a Finals MVP, and he wouldn't have a ring. Rodman would've taken care of part of that, and Jordan/Pippen would've handled the other part.

Dirk went through some really good teams though. He faced Aldrige and Portland, Gasol/Bynum and Lakers, Ibaka/Perkins and Thunder, and then Anthony/Bosh in Miami. He had tough matchups the whole way through and never struggled.

[Nitro]

But that is not his role to grab boards. Dirk plays in the perimeter, the main strenght of his game is his mid range jump shot, which he masters to perfection, so it's definitely normal that he does not take more rebounds... He has teammates who came on the team for that anyhow, like Chandler mainly, he does not need to focus on rebounds any more, that does mean that he does not rebound well.. In the past, when Dallas had no one inside, he definitely showed that he was a very good rebounder. Besides he was quite alright this year as well, in his last game for example, when he struggle for the most part of the game he decided to rather focus on rebounds and grabbed 11 ones.. He just did not grab more rebounds because he did not need to. So it's totally unfair to blame him for that.

 

I disagree. How often did you hear JVG say in the Heat series that Dirk was killing them by leaking out in transition and not going after the boards, which created 2nd chance opportunities? I agree that Dirk shouldn't be expected to dominate the offense boards like Barkley did, however on the defensive boards there is no excuse...and both prime Barkley and KG were much better on the defensive glass. And offensively, grabbing offensive boards often leads to the highest percentage shots in basketball besides fastbreak points, so I do think you are underrating the importance of Barkley and KG's dominance there.

 

I agree with all of these except for the scoring part... Malone was a very efficient scorer but the main difference between the two is that, contrary to Karl, Dirk is a NATURAL scorer. As a matter of fact Malone was not a very good scorer at the beginning of his career, he didn't have a very good jump shot. But he worked very hard and developped a very good and reliable jump shot. And became also a much better FT shooter (he was like Shaq in that area at the beginning of his career). While Dirk is a natural shooter and scorer. He's just a gifted shooter. That is why he is overall a better scorer.

 

Malone wasn't a natural scorer? There was an 11 season stretch where 9 of those seasons he averaged more points than Dirk's career-high. 8 seasons Malone finished top 3 in scoring, whereas Dirk has never finished better than 4th. And factoring in FT%, both were equally efficient scorer (about .580 for their careers). If you want to say Dirk is an equal scorer, fine, but he isn't a better scorer.

 

 

I never said that he had very good teammates, but he had better teammates than the ones you mentioned... I already talked about that in my post so I ain't gonna repeat myself. Dirk's teammates were better, never said the opposite, but not THAT better... The fact is that his teammates were still good enough, most of the time, to pass the first round of the playoffs. It's just impossible to blame his teammates for not making it to the second round for seven years in a row...

It is very important to be aware that KG was SEVERALY criticized at the time for his lack of leadership and clutchness. That most people considered him as a player who only cared about his money and didn't care enough about winning...

As I already said, in 2004 (the only year that KG's Wolves passed the first round so) the big difference in that team was Sam Cassell. Why ? Because he brought to that team something that they didn't have before, CLUTCHNESS AND LEADERSHIP. That's right, that year the real go to guy of the team, the one who had the ball in his hands when they were in trouble was Sam Cassell. That clearly shows what kind of player KG was at the time.

 

Ok, fine, but what about what Tyson Chandler did for Dirk? Without a DPOY candidate at center, one who could cover up for Dirk's mistakes and defend the other team's elite PF (like he did with Bosh), what has Dirk ever done? And yes, I remember very, very clearly the criticism KG faced when he was with the Wolves, just like the criticism Dirk faced just 3 months ago...it was unfair. Not every big man is a Duncan or Hakeem, you need other guys who make up for your weaknesses to win a championship. However, with KG, Cassell's main advantage was his ability to create his own shot in the 4th quarter. With Dirk, he needed a guy that could cover up his defensive mistakes and clean the boards for all 4 quarters. So, who was more valuable, Chandler or Cassell? Both Dirk and KG were first round knockouts the previous seasons without either guy.

 

Speaking about that, that reminds me that the Mavs and Wolves faced each other once in the first round. And that year KG definitely had a good team, his teammates were Brandon (again once of the best PGs I ever seen, very underrated player), Joe Smith (again he had his best years and by far in Minnesota), Szczerbiak (who was at his best as well), Billups and good players like Peeler and Gary Trent (I liked this player at the time, not a star but he was a solid PF). And I clearly remember that many people thought that Wolves had a great chance to beat Dallas that year... Cause they had all what they needed to beat them, and they were quite good defensively contrary to Dallas... Well not only Dallas destroyed them but Dirk just ate KG alive. Literally. And I clearly remember how KG was criticized at the time... Even more than usual. And how everyone praised Dirk already for being a great leader. It was already very clear that Dirk was a better leader than KG.

 

Yeah, I remember that, but Dallas had a "Big 3" of their own in Dirk, Nash and Finley, and all 3 lit it up that series.They also owned HCA throughout that series, and Dallas won 7 more games during the regular season. To expect the Wolves to win a series like that's very misguided, and even though Dirk outplayed KG, KG still had a pretty fantastic series (averaged 24/17/5/2/2). It's like ripping Dirk for the Mavs losing to the Spurs last season...he wasn't at fault either, and his team actually did own HCA.

 

No I don't think could have done what KG done, obviously as he's not as good a defender... And now about today's Mavs, do you think that KG could have done what Dirk did ? That's a prime example of why I put so much value into clutchness and leadership...

KG had a fantastic season that year, there is no doubt about that, but he was still the second option. Paul Pierce was the leader. In term of pure talent KG was certainly the best player, but pure talent is not enough... And overall, as he was the leader of the team, we definitely can consider Pierce as the best player of the team overall. Pierce won the Finals MVP. And many argued that this trophy could have gone to Ray Ray (it's true that Ray was fantastic and could have won it as well) while no one thinks that KG could have won it... That says much.

 

Why did the Celtics win the championship that season? A defense that'll go down as one of the best all-time, and besides the '04 Pistons I've never seen a better defensive team than that version of the Celtics. And who gets credited, by analysts, teammates and coaches, for getting them to that level emotionally? KG. Who won the DPOY that season? KG. Who led the team in rebounds and was 2nd in scoring, and 3rd is assists, on top of that defensive dominance? KG.

 

So, I think you are way over-valuing scoring. That season I think you could have replaced Pierce with 3 or 4 different perimeter players who could have done what he did. However, I don't think they could have found another big man that covered as much ground and dominated as much defensively as KG did (while getting everyone else, such as Pierce and Allen who were never known as great defender to buy in), while being able to be the top rebounder on the team, 2nd highest scorer and 3rd in assists. That's why versatility is so important, and why he was definitely the best player

 

Well in fact Dirk was drafted at the same age as KG. Exactly. Actually Dirk was EXACTLY one month older than Garnett when he played his first game in the league, but they were both 20. So at the same age as Dirk now, KG had just played the exact same amount of seasons, 13 to be precised. So no the argument doesn stand here.

 

KG's 13th season he won DPOY and a title. We'll have to see Dirk's next few seasons to see if he has substantially better longevity, however he may go down with a knee injury and never be the same like what happened in KG's 14th season.

 

But anyway I personally think that you give too much importance to versatility. It is not because you are better in more areas that you are necessarily the better player... Let's take Jordan's example for instance. Is he the most versatile player ever ? Definitely not. Pippen was better in most area, Pip was a better shooter, defender, rebounder, passer and stealer than Jordan. The only thing that Jordan did better than Pippen was scoring. So by this logic we would have to say that Pip was therefore a better player.. But the fact is that, and we all know that (I hope so at least) Jordan was the better player nonetheless. Why ? Because of his clutchness and leadership, two areas in which Jordan was BY FAR better than Pippen.

 

I agree in principle, however there is difference between having minimal differences (like Jordan/Pippen did in most areas), and having massive differences like the gap between Dirk and KG's ability to rebound, defend and pass (IMO on the passing part). KG was never Dirk when it came to scoring, but he was still a damn good scorer who could score in solid volume (20-24PPG) and efficiency (consistently between 47-50% shooting, .550-.570 TS%). He was never in the same realm of clutch scoring as Dirk, but IMO KG's ability to DOMINATE defensively and on the boards all 4 quarters is more valuable. And it was a lot more likely to see KG explode and come up huge in the 4th quarter (like Game 7 vs the Kings in 2004) than it is to see Dirk dominate the way KG dis defensively/on the boards on a nightly basis.

[Oliver P]

I disagree. How often did you hear JVG say in the Heat series that Dirk was killing them by leaking out in transition and not going after the boards, which created 2nd chance opportunities? I agree that Dirk shouldn't be expected to dominate the offense boards like Barkley did, however on the defensive boards there is no excuse...and both prime Barkley and KG were much better on the defensive glass. And offensively, grabbing offensive boards often leads to the highest percentage shots in basketball besides fastbreak points, so I do think you are underrating the importance of Barkley and KG's dominance there.

 

No I am not underrating Barkley and KG's dominance in reounds at all. Hell I am a huge Rodman fan so trust me I know how important rebounds and defense are for a team. But first as I said Dirk still proved that he was still a very good rebounder through his career, and even in this Finals (he wasn't great in that area in game 1, definitely agree but he definitely paid more attention about defensive rebounds from game 2 on). And that it is not his main role to take care of rebounds. His main role is to lead his team, to be the clutch player, the go to guy, to make his team win. Just like it was Barkley and KG's role at one point and, contrary to them, Dirk did not fail, he made his team win as the leader alright, while, again, having one of the most impressive performance that we ever seen.

 

By the way JVG also said that the Heat would beat the Bulls 72 wins record this season so frankly I don't think that it's wise to listen to him... ^_^

 

But anyway more seriously what I mean is that, yes it's true that KG and Barkley were better rebounder, no doubt about that, and it would have been better if Dirk was a better rebounder than he is (again he's still a very good one), but no one's perfect... Even the greatest have flaws. And the fact is that Dirk is definitely better in the clutch, a better leader, than Barkley and KG ever were. And I think that it's definitely more important.

 

 

Malone wasn't a natural scorer? There was an 11 season stretch where 9 of those seasons he averaged more points than Dirk's career-high. 8 seasons Malone finished top 3 in scoring, whereas Dirk has never finished better than 4th. And factoring in FT%, both were equally efficient scorer (about .580 for their careers). If you want to say Dirk is an equal scorer, fine, but he isn't a better scorer.

 

Lol I never denied that he was a great scorer... he was indeed. But contrary to Nowitzki he wasn't a "natural" scorer. The difference between a natural scorer and an "unnatural" one is that a natural scorer is a player that has acquired this ability at birth. It is the case for Dirk. He's alway had this ability to score, it is NATURAL for him. While it's not the case for Malone who, like Ewing for example, was not a good scorer at first. As I said at the very beginning of his career he had no jump shot and was also horrible at the FT line. But he worked hard and became a very good scorer, as well as very good from the FT line. And developped a very reliable jump shot. Same for Ewing who was just a defender at first. But he developped a fantastic jump shot and even became the best shooter among the centers of All Time (with Sabonis). Which shows that you can accomplish anything with hard work.

 

Also, another difference between Dirk and Malone, is that it's important not to forget that Karl played with the second best PG of All Time (some even consider him as the best... though I don't). Who was always here to give him the ball in the best conditions possible to score. Very important to consider that... And contrary to Malone, Dirk can score from absolutely everywhere on the court. Which is why that, even if Malone was a great scorer, I defintiely give the edge to Dirk.

 

 

Ok, fine, but what about what Tyson Chandler did for Dirk? Without a DPOY candidate at center, one who could cover up for Dirk's mistakes and defend the other team's elite PF (like he did with Bosh), what has Dirk ever done? And yes, I remember very, very clearly the criticism KG faced when he was with the Wolves, just like the criticism Dirk faced just 3 months ago...it was unfair. Not every big man is a Duncan or Hakeem, you need other guys who make up for your weaknesses to win a championship. However, with KG, Cassell's main advantage was his ability to create his own shot in the 4th quarter. With Dirk, he needed a guy that could cover up his defensive mistakes and clean the boards for all 4 quarters. So, who was more valuable, Chandler or Cassell? Both Dirk and KG were first round knockouts the previous seasons without either guy.

 

It still is not the same thing though. Of course you need other guys to make up for your weaknesses to win a ring (Hakeem and Duncan were not perfect by the way, they also had weaknesses and needed teammates to make up for their weaknesses...), no one is perfect. But it's still not the same thing. Dirk, and rather the Mavs needed Chandler because Dirk is not a true inside player, as I said his main strenght is the mid range game, he relies more on his shot than the usual inside player, and in fact most of his teammates are the same. Yet you need a well balanced team to win a ring, you cannot win if you have players who are all the same. Chandler allowed this team to add what they needed, a real strength inside. And thanks to him the team was now more balanced.

In KG's case it's not the same thing at all. Cassell brought to that team things that KG himself should have done for them if he was a real leader... A leader is someone who's supposed to carry his team when it needs it the most. And Garnett was just unable to do that. That year it was very clear that KG would never be the leader that everyone expected him to be.

 

Oh and by the way KG was a first round knock out before the arrival of Cassell, but certainly not Dirk... Beforet the arrival of Chandler he led his team to the semis four times, to the WCF once, and once to the Finals.

 

 

Yeah, I remember that, but Dallas had a "Big 3" of their own in Dirk, Nash and Finley, and all 3 lit it up that series.They also owned HCA throughout that series, and Dallas won 7 more games during the regular season. To expect the Wolves to win a series like that's very misguided, and even though Dirk outplayed KG, KG still had a pretty fantastic series (averaged 24/17/5/2/2). It's like ripping Dirk for the Mavs losing to the Spurs last season...he wasn't at fault either, and his team actually did own HCA.

 

Dallas had his big three, true, but it was a totally offensive big three, just like the entire team, there was no defense at all in Dallas during the Nellie era. Which is why many people expected the Wolves, who were more balanced and were better defensively, to beat them that year. Even I (Dallas was obviously already my second fav team) wasn't really confident that year... But Dallas just destroyed them. Now of course it would be unfair to blame KG just for that. Like people unfairly blamed Dirk last year. But it's not the same thing. Last year The Spurs beat Dallas but Dirk was, AND BY FAR, the best player of the entire series. I even heard Spurs fans saying how they were impressed by Dirk... Dirk outplayed Duncan last year. Clearly. So it's not the same and his teammates were clearly the ones to blame.

While in the Mavs-Wolves series, Dirk definitely outplayed KG, he was clearly better than him, especially in the fourth. That's a big difference and KG has to take the blame for this pathetic performance (the Wolves didn't even win one game).

 

 

Why did the Celtics win the championship that season? A defense that'll go down as one of the best all-time, and besides the '04 Pistons I've never seen a better defensive team than that version of the Celtics. And who gets credited, by analysts, teammates and coaches, for getting them to that level emotionally? KG. Who won the DPOY that season? KG. Who led the team in rebounds and was 2nd in scoring, and 3rd is assists, on top of that defensive dominance? KG.

 

Yes KG was fantastic this year, there is no doubt about it. He was very impressive. He was essential to his team, no doubt the C's couldn't have won without his fantastic defense. Don't get me wrong I am not trying to say that KG was not a great player, he definitely was (well is actually lol). But the fact remains that, as good as he was, he succeeded as the second option of the team, not the first option, not the leader... And that's not the same thing as making your team win as a leader.

Pippen was very valuable to the Bulls as well, he was the defensive anchor of one of the best defense ever. Besides he was always the second rebounder, best passer, best stealer of the team, the Bulls would never have won without him as well. Can he be considered as the Bulls best player ? We all know the answer : no. Being essential to the success of your team and being the best player are two different things. And, if I don't deny the importance of the other players (even the role players for that matter, a lot of role players are among my fav players ever actually), I will always give more weight to the leader. And I'm not bias when I say that, because among my favorite players of All Time, only Ewing and Nowitzki are leaders, superstars. All the others are above average role players or basic stars (yep I'm a weird guy I know lol). I just know that the leader is more important, there's no way someone can deny that.

 

 

So, I think you are way over-valuing scoring. That season I think you could have replaced Pierce with 3 or 4 different perimeter players who could have done what he did. However, I don't think they could have found another big man that covered as much ground and dominated as much defensively as KG did (while getting everyone else, such as Pierce and Allen who were never known as great defender to buy in), while being able to be the top rebounder on the team, 2nd highest scorer and 3rd in assists. That's why versatility is so important, and why he was definitely the best player

 

Funny that you say that cause I am and have always been, first a fan a huge defense... The 90's Knicks are not my favorite teams ever for nothing... So I do not think that I am over valuing scoring in any way.

No other big man ? Really ? Mmh... I don't know Duncan maybe ? Not only he's as good a defender as Garnett but he's a better scorer and leader... Or what about Dwight ? His presence alone could have been enough to make a difference. Or Camby ? He was at his best that year. Sure they ain't as versatile as KG but they were good enough defensively to have a positive impact on the C's. And if I ain't sure that the C's would have won with Camby, I'm sure that they definitely would have a pretty good chance with Dwight.

And what if they had had an offensive player ? Like Dirk for instance ? Yes, as I said myself the C's wouldn't have had that huge D, but they would have been MUCH better offensively. Besides they would still have had a decent defense, not as impressive, but good enough to win a ring I'm sure.

Well anyway I think that's it's a false debate. It's purely speculation. We just can't know what would have happened if the C's had had another player instead of KG, honestly...

 

By the way I definitely think that you are underrating Pierce. Three of four players who could have done what he did ? Who could have been that good of a leader and get a Finals MVP ? Really ? Who ? LeBron ? If he played at the level he played this year I certainly don't think so... Who else ? VC ? Let's be serious... The fact is that there are not a lot of SFs who can play at the level Pierce played that year, in fact, to be honest, the only one would be LeBron but we clearly saw that year that he wasn't yet the leader that he's supposed to be (if he ever becomes that leader).

Besides last year KG, despite the fact that he had quite a good season defensively, had the worst year of his career. His impact was definitely not the same as the one he had on his team in 2008. Yet the Celtics almost won a ring... And many think that they would have actually won with a healthy Perkins (considering the way they played in the playoffs this year I have to say that I tend to agree with that, even if I thought initially that Boston could win without him, I think I was just wrong).

 

And I already talked about this versatility thing so I ain't gonna repeat myself.

 

 

KG's 13th season he won DPOY and a title. We'll have to see Dirk's next few seasons to see if he has substantially better longevity, however he may go down with a knee injury and never be the same like what happened in KG's 14th season.

 

Yeah he won a DPOY, that's very good indeed. But the fact is still that he started to decrease that year... Was still very good, but started to decrease. While Dirk is clearly playing the best basketball of his career ! I agree that we'll have to wait and see but there's no sign whatsoever that he's gonna decrease soon, it would rather be the opposite... Besides he already has a bit better longevity no matter what.

 

By the way I realized yesterday, after I turned off my computer, that I made a mistake (was too lazy to turn it back on to correct it). KG arrived in the league one year younger than Dirk, they didn't arrive at the same age... My bad. But still the point is still on though, one year is not that big of a difference...

Besides we definitely have to remember that, contrary to KG, Dirk spent ALL OF HIS SUMMERS (at the exception of last year) playing with team Germany.. And let me add that he took those events very seriously, he gave all what he got with Team Germany and did things that no one thought that he was able to do... Like when he led Team Germany to the 3rd place of the World Cup in 2002, or the 2nd place at the 2005 Eurobasket... that was just beyond belief. Especially that those German teams are really, REALLY bad... And I ain't even kidding, Dirk has no help at all (even Kaman has been nothing but HORRIBLE with that team, I was quite excited to see him at first but was quickly very disappointed...). He averaged stats that seemed impossible to average in FIBA basketball (yeah in FIBA basketball it's way harder to average good stats). He played like Jordan.

Well anyway it's very important to take all of this in consideration, and there is therefore no excuse for KG to decrease earlier than Dirk, it should actually definitely be the opposite.

 

 

I agree in principle, however there is difference between having minimal differences (like Jordan/Pippen did in most areas), and having massive differences like the gap between Dirk and KG's ability to rebound, defend and pass (IMO on the passing part). KG was never Dirk when it came to scoring, but he was still a damn good scorer who could score in solid volume (20-24PPG) and efficiency (consistently between 47-50% shooting, .550-.570 TS%). He was never in the same realm of clutch scoring as Dirk, but IMO KG's ability to DOMINATE defensively and on the boards all 4 quarters is more valuable. And it was a lot more likely to see KG explode and come up huge in the 4th quarter (like Game 7 vs the Kings in 2004) than it is to see Dirk dominate the way KG dis defensively/on the boards on a nightly basis.

 

Massive differences ? You are definitely exaggerating man... I can agree with that term for the defense, but not for redounds and assits... Yes he's a better passer and rebounder but massive is way exaggerated...

Well anyway it's there that we disagree and that we will never agree apparently... I will never agree with you that KG's defense and rebounds are more valuable than Dirk's clutch shooting and true leadership. I am as I said first of all a fan of huge defense but there is no doubt for me that offense is more valuable. The purpose of basketball is to put the ball into the rim.

Let's take an example : on one side you have one of the greatest defenders ever, he's the best in the league currently and by far but he's terrible offensive.. He couldn't score even if he was alone by the rim. On the other side you have one of the best scorers and clutch shooters ever, he's the current best but he's terrible defensively... Let's say that these two players play against each other, who wins ? Obviously the offensive one, no doubt about it. Why ? Because as great as the defender is, he will never be able to stop the scorer. Some defenders did a good job on Jordan for example (like Balckman or Dumars) but none were able to stop him. A defender can at best "limit" a superstar, but a true superstar will never be stopped. While a player who's terrible offensively will not be able to score, even on a lousy defender and there we can conclude that the scorer would literally destroy the defender. And it is there that we see the difference between a great scorer and a great defender.

Both are important, very important, but leadership and clutch scoring are definitely the most important thing in the game of baskeball.

 

Which is why there is no doubt in my mind that Dirk is a better player than KG. Not by far, don't get me wrong, KG is still a fantastic player, no doubt about that. But the way Dirk literally DOMINATED THE FOURTH and carried his team to the win in this last playoffs is once again just unreal, very few players have been able to be that clutch, to be that good leaders, and this is why I believe that a very good case can be made for Dirk as the second best Power Forward of All Time.

[Sportsguy9695]

If Dirk can win a few more Titles I will start talking about him being in the top 20 best of all time. But he needs to get Rings.