LeBron's declining athleticism

[Nitro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofMwRzJynnc

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G6Wd8IZZjM

 

I saw a few of these topics on RealGM throughout the playoffs, and someone linked to this video but I didn't decide to post this until now. That video is from last year's playoffs, and while I don't think LeBron's vertical has changed much, I do think he's lost a step in the speed department. He just doesn't have that same speed off the dribble anymore, whether it be first step or full-steam. It really makes you wonder just how much longer he has until he really needs to further develop his jumper and post-game because he has played an incredible amount of minutes his entire career, mixed with some deep post-season runs, and he's only going to go downhill. Looking at this video (and other from years past) and it also seems that he was a tad bit heavier this season than past years, which may have also slowed him down a bit.

 

Just an observation.

 

EDIT: The first video I linked was the wrong one, but that also offers some plays that show the difference in his speed from then 'till now.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Nitro

[Clutch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-02452zJ-U

 

even when he declines, he will still be a beast...look at wade from 03-06 to now, he has declined quite a lot (i sometimes watch and forget how he was twice as explosive before..its crazy lol) but is still easily one of the most explosive players in the league

 

iverson in his last few days in denver and detroit was still crazy, when u start off as high as these guys, the decline doesn't look all that bad until REALLY late in their careers

 

i think i saw kobe dunk more this year with bad knees than the past 2 years, he clearly has the ability to attack but he is smarter with his body now

 

lebron has more than just athleticism on his side, he has size and strength as well which is why its really important for him to continue to develop his post-game..this year he had some good moments playing in the post but even andre miller has a better post game than him right now i would say

 

he has to develop some pump-fake move or something else too, this guy rarely draws foul outside of the paint ..so if he's not attackin there is no other way he finds to get to the line (mavs series best example)

 

kobe and wade will pump-fake the shit out of players lol, even bosh has a very solid pump-fake move

[JYD]

People act like just cuz he's like 26 or 27 he'll be able to play at a top level forever. He's been in the NBA for 8 seasons now. It's definitely taken a toll on his body. I'd be surprised if he played a top top level like he's been playing for more than the next 2 seasons. I think by 30 we will see his body start to break down. His game is not suited to play a slower pace and be less athletic. No post game / no reliable jumper will = trouble for LBJ as he ages

[AboveLegit]

I think Wade will show a big decline in his game in the next 2-3 years. No way he's able to play at this level for much longer.

 

As for LBJ, he has shown the ability to shoot jumpshots at an efficient rate, now he just needs to hit them consistently. He'll get there eventually. But that post game really bothers me, I'm very skeptical of that part of his game, not sure he has the footwork in the paint to develop an effective back to the basket game. Going to need to put in a lot of work this summer.

[Karl Malone]

8 years takes a toll on you. I hate LeBron but, tough competition at the top level for 8 years will bring a decline to anyone. We don't realize how long these guys have been playing and how long they've been able to compete at a high level.

[Flash]

I have a good feeling Pat Riley is gonna have a sit down with LeBron at some point this summer and tell him what he's gotta do. That's the only person who can get him to do it IMO. I have my doubts that he'll magically start working on it on his own.

[Real Deal]

I'm very skeptical about LeBron being able to do anything else (meaning, change his game up when he starts to lose athleticism). The footwork isn't there. Honestly, he gets away with more travels than any other player I've ever seen in the history of the game. Being able to play in the post, constantly, is a huge plus for anyone at his size. He's taller than Charles Barkley, and weighs more than Charles did at many points of his career (CB sat at 6-6, 252 for years). Charles was a legitimate PF because of his post game and his ability to crash the boards.

 

Thinking back, I've noticed a small decline, but not too much. I have to recall the times he dunked on Damon Jones, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett...then go back to this season and compare.

 

This really isn't good news. As I stated in another topic, Dwyane Wade is almost 30. If you disregard age, you have to consider the fact that all three of the trio have played eight seasons, and two of those three (LeBron and Wade) are more of an Allen Iverson than a Kobe Bryant, and that's why Iverson left the game while Bryant, Nash and Ray Allen (all from the 1996 class) are still playing basketball at high levels.

[Nitro]

and two of those three (LeBron and Wade) are more of an Allen Iverson than a Kobe Bryant, and that's why Iverson left the game while Bryant, Nash and Ray Allen (all from the 1996 class) are still playing basketball at high levels.

 

Eh, Iverson is out of the league because of what's inbetween his ears rather than basketball ability. The only big difference between him in his final 2 seasons and when he was in his prime was volume of scoring. In 07-08 he had arguably the best season of his career statistically.

 

Anyway, I do think Wade has a chance to prolong his career longer than most expect because of his post-game. If you recall, during the Philly and Dallas series he was near-unstoppable down in the post, and it's a damn shame they didn't exploit that more. If Kidd could improve his shooting 10 years after entering the league, then I am confident Wade and Bron can do the same. However, the point of this topic was to show that the change in LeBron's game is coming a lot sooner than most people expected.

[Real Deal]

Eh, Iverson is out of the league because of what's inbetween his ears rather than basketball ability. The only big difference between him in his final 2 seasons and when he was in his prime was volume of scoring. In 07-08 he had arguably the best season of his career statistically.

It was clear that Iverson wasn't the same player when he was in Memphis, Detroit and his second stint in Philly. Detroit wanted to start him, more than the other two teams, but he was getting out-worked in practice by Rodney Stuckey, and it just showed on the court. When did Iverson not have an attitude problem or a big head? If he was still able to get to the rim and do what he wanted on the offensive end, there's no way in hell that Detroit would've treated him like a bench player. Same with Memphis and Philly.

 

Anyway, I do think Wade has a chance to prolong his career longer than most expect because of his post-game. If you recall, during the Philly and Dallas series he was near-unstoppable down in the post, and it's a damn shame they didn't exploit that more. If Kidd could improve his shooting 10 years after entering the league, then I am confident Wade and Bron can do the same. However, the point of this topic was to show that the change in LeBron's game is coming a lot sooner than most people expected.

Not that I actually attend practices, but it just seems to me like Wade would be willing to dig deeper and develop a nearly flawless post game, while LeBron would end up believing he can drive to the rim until he's 38. Maybe it's due to the fact that James has yet to really put one together. What if he did back in, say, 2007? By now, he would be absolutely scary...but hell, Shawn Marion welcomed it, and Jason Kidd didn't care if he had to defend LeBron. Dallas didn't run doubles every single time, and it worked.

 

It just feels like Wade wants it five times as much. LeBron did take a big leap on the defensive end, improving greatly, but how does a guy like him not realize how massively important a post game would be? It would be much, much different if he was a skinny Toronto Raptor McGrady, and he didn't have the meat on his bones or the strength to take advantage of anyone...but good God, LeBron could destroy people on the block. How the hell would Durant hold him?

 

While I'll love it because I can admit that I hate the guy, it'll be disappointing for him and most of his fans if he doesn't polish his offensive game. It sounded like he didn't realize he wasn't that great in the Finals, which worries me. If he truly believes it was all due to defensive mistakes, and team defense at that, and that it wasn't God's plan this year (WTF), then he's got a long road ahead of him.

[Nitro]

It was clear that Iverson wasn't the same player when he was in Memphis, Detroit and his second stint in Philly. Detroit wanted to start him, more than the other two teams, but he was getting out-worked in practice by Rodney Stuckey, and it just showed on the court. When did Iverson not have an attitude problem or a big head? If he was still able to get to the rim and do what he wanted on the offensive end, there's no way in hell that Detroit would've treated him like a bench player. Same with Memphis and Philly.

 

I know he wasn't quite the same player in Detroit/Memphis/2nd time in Philly that he was in his prime, but if he was taking 20+ shots per game he would have been getting his points at the same crap efficiency he got them in his prime. As I said, in 07-08 he had arguably the best individual season of his career. If he was willing to come off the bench and hadn't gone through all that crap he did in his last season, he'd probably be an important piece to some team in the league.

 

 

Not that I actually attend practices, but it just seems to me like Wade would be willing to dig deeper and develop a nearly flawless post game, while LeBron would end up believing he can drive to the rim until he's 38. Maybe it's due to the fact that James has yet to really put one together. What if he did back in, say, 2007? By now, he would be absolutely scary...but hell, Shawn Marion welcomed it, and Jason Kidd didn't care if he had to defend LeBron. Dallas didn't run doubles every single time, and it worked.

 

It just feels like Wade wants it five times as much. LeBron did take a big leap on the defensive end, improving greatly, but how does a guy like him not realize how massively important a post game would be? It would be much, much different if he was a skinny Toronto Raptor McGrady, and he didn't have the meat on his bones or the strength to take advantage of anyone...but good God, LeBron could destroy people on the block. How the hell would Durant hold him?

 

While I'll love it because I can admit that I hate the guy, it'll be disappointing for him and most of his fans if he doesn't polish his offensive game. It sounded like he didn't realize he wasn't that great in the Finals, which worries me. If he truly believes it was all due to defensive mistakes, and team defense at that, and that it wasn't God's plan this year (WTF), then he's got a long road ahead of him.

 

Well, I don't think he's ever developed a post game because he felt his iso on the wing/PnR style of play never really warranted it. I think getting punked when trying to post-up guys like Barea or Kidd will make him realize it's an area he could really be dangerous in. I don't think he even needs to develop great footwork in the post; I've seen him backdown Artest and Pierce with disturbing ease. However, when he gets close to the basket he gets very uncomfortable and misses point-blank shots that are a 1 on the difficulty chart compared to some of the layups he hits off dribble penetration. It's all about getting used to being in that position...that can be done in a single off-season, and then Spo can use it as a regular set in the regular season so by the time the post-season arrives, LeBron will be well-prepared.

[Real Deal]

I think getting punked when trying to post-up guys like Barea or Kidd will make him realize it's an area he could really be dangerous in.

Did he get punked by Barea? I don't remember that, lol...that's insane.

 

I do remember him having Barea on a switch, but he didn't try posting up...just took a jumper after about 6-7 seconds of dribbling. Dallas actually decided to see what would happen if Barea was all alone, with no help, and LeBron felt like he didn't want a piece of The Glove 2.

 

I understand him having trouble with Kidd in the post if he doesn't have a post game in the first place. Kidd is just all-around amazing, even at 38. However, given the size advantage, I just don't see how this guy hasn't done something about it already, even if he has dominated many other defenders with his game so far.

 

The whole "put my head down and get to the line" shit isn't going to last his entire career, though. Interesting topic, because one would think that LeBron really wouldn't show a decline in athleticism so soon.

[moeroadkill]

Did he get punked by Barea? I don't remember that, lol...that's insane.

 

I do remember him having Barea on a switch, but he didn't try posting up...just took a jumper after about 6-7 seconds of dribbling. Dallas actually decided to see what would happen if Barea was all alone, with no help, and LeBron felt like he didn't want a piece of The Glove 2.

 

I understand him having trouble with Kidd in the post if he doesn't have a post game in the first place. Kidd is just all-around amazing, even at 38. However, given the size advantage, I just don't see how this guy hasn't done something about it already, even if he has dominated many other defenders with his game so far.

 

The whole "put my head down and get to the line" shit isn't going to last his entire career, though. Interesting topic, because one would think that LeBron really wouldn't show a decline in athleticism so soon.

 

 

game 6, he got barea in the post and an offensive foul was called although i thought it was a bs call because barea is so short lebrons arm was in his neck/face not much lebron could really do and barea being barea flopped

[Real Deal]

game 6, he got barea in the post and an offensive foul was called although i thought it was a bs call because barea is so short lebrons arm was in his neck/face not much lebron could really do and barea being barea flopped

Well, I wouldn't really consider that getting punked, I guess. To me, it means that LeBron got him in the post, no help, and Barea actually ripped him or contested his shot so well, it caused him to miss the rim altogether.

[moeroadkill]

i agree but unless nitro can recall another time he posted up barea

[JYD]

This really isn't good news. As I stated in another topic, Dwyane Wade is almost 30. If you disregard age, you have to consider the fact that all three of the trio have played eight seasons, and two of those three (LeBron and Wade) are more of an Allen Iverson than a Kobe Bryant, and that's why Iverson left the game while Bryant, Nash and Ray Allen (all from the 1996 class) are still playing basketball at high levels.

Iverson was like 5'11" though. Wade and LeBron are much bigger. I'm sure watching as much ball as you did in the 90's you remember how fearless Iverson was going to the cup...definitely true how much of a toll hitting the deck every took on his body......Wade is similar in that and we've seen Wade have many injuries over his career. LeBron and Iverson I don't really see the parallels though.

Edited June 15, 2011 by JYD

[Real Deal]

I SEE YOU REPLYING. BRING IT NITRO!

[Clutch]

wade is crafty as hell though, if slow ass pierce can still drive, wade will be driving to the hole for quite some years, even as his athleticism declines

[Nitro]

Did he get punked by Barea? I don't remember that, lol...that's insane.

 

I do remember him having Barea on a switch, but he didn't try posting up...just took a jumper after about 6-7 seconds of dribbling. Dallas actually decided to see what would happen if Barea was all alone, with no help, and LeBron felt like he didn't want a piece of The Glove 2.

 

Yeah, I was talking about the Game 6 offensive foul. He started backing him down around 18ft out, the Mavs gave no help, and LeBron was SO uncomfortable in that situation. It was embarassing and caused an offensive foul. In that kind of situation once LeBron has Barea on his back he's gotta make a quick move to the basket because no way is Barea getting position to defend that. However, Barea is one of the biggest floppers in the league, and backing him down from 18ft out all the way to the rim is asking for a foul.

 

I understand him having trouble with Kidd in the post if he doesn't have a post game in the first place. Kidd is just all-around amazing, even at 38. However, given the size advantage, I just don't see how this guy hasn't done something about it already, even if he has dominated many other defenders with his game so far.

 

There is no excuse for letting Kidd defend LeBron in the post. Wade was tearing Kidd up, backing him down as far as he wanted, and then making an easy move to the rim or a quick shot over Kidd. LeBron doesn't need any fancy footwork or turnaround jumper with Kidd defending him...just get comfortable with finishing point-blank shots in those situations and get more comfortable with passing out of the post.

[Real Deal]

There is no excuse for letting Kidd defend LeBron in the post. Wade was tearing Kidd up, backing him down as far as he wanted, and then making an easy move to the rim or a quick shot over Kidd. LeBron doesn't need any fancy footwork or turnaround jumper with Kidd defending him...just get comfortable with finishing point-blank shots in those situations and get more comfortable with passing out of the post.

That's just it, though...if he can't finish shots like that, and he doesn't know how to pass out of the post, he's not going to be able to post up any good post defender without getting called for a charge, a walk, or trapped into help D along the baseline.

 

Sure, he doesn't have an excuse for it, but that's because he SHOULD be able to do all of that. Because he can't, well, it's understandable.

 

And Wade has a better post game than LeBron, sadly. Hard to really believe it, since the one that needs work is four inches taller and has about 400 pounds more muscle, but it is what it is, and we'll see if LeBron comes into the next season with something new or not.

[Nitro]

That's just it, though...if he can't finish shots like that, and he doesn't know how to pass out of the post, he's not going to be able to post up any good post defender without getting called for a charge, a walk, or trapped into help D along the baseline.

 

Sure, he doesn't have an excuse for it, but that's because he SHOULD be able to do all of that. Because he can't, well, it's understandable.

 

And Wade has a better post game than LeBron, sadly. Hard to really believe it, since the one that needs work is four inches taller and has about 400 pounds more muscle, but it is what it is, and we'll see if LeBron comes into the next season with something new or not.

 

LeBron's an amazing passer and finisher around the rim. He has those capabilities to do those things out of the post, it's just a matter of getting used to it during games. If he practices some in the off-season, and more importantly Spo calls for more sets with LeBron in the post throughout next season, I really believe he will be very effective in those situations this time next year. He can get by without great footwork or turnaround jumper, which is what most perimeter post-up players need, and those are the hardest areas to develop. The things he needs to improve to be effective have to do with comfort, not actual ability.

[Real Deal]

LeBron's an amazing passer and finisher around the rim. He has those capabilities to do those things out of the post, it's just a matter of getting used to it during games. If he practices some in the off-season, and more importantly Spo calls for more sets with LeBron in the post throughout next season, I really believe he will be very effective in those situations this time next year. He can get by without great footwork or turnaround jumper, which is what most perimeter post-up players need, and those are the hardest areas to develop. The things he needs to improve to be effective have to do with comfort, not actual ability.

I agree. I actually wonder how much of that has to do with Wade not being more of a Ray Allen, and LeBron being too confident in his champion teammate? Let's face the facts: any player would rather pass to Dwyane Wade over Mike Bibby and Mike Miller. The Heat found a lot of success this season, but I wouldn't put much of it on their role players. All three loved isolations, mainly because they are used to them being called since they came into the league, and using the P&R creates the mismatches they want, and basically gives them the green light to attack their opposition.

 

It would be difficult for me to dish the ball out to someone like Bibby only because I'd have two other all-stars on the floor, and I would look for them first.

 

Of course, I'm not making excuses for him, because you win with five players on the court...but this seemed to be the problem, especially under the big lights. It's really hard to pinpoint what was going through his head in the Finals, but when you have a teammate that is so similar and that needs the ball to operate (Wade is better off the ball than LeBron, but he's not Ray Ray), then it's like having three teammates on the floor, not four...and those three usually just sat around and waited for their shot.

 

It really almost felt like it was the 2010 Cavaliers out there, at many points of the game.

 

If LeBron develops the post, and he utilizes it and figures out how to draw doubles out of it (because, honestly, teams will need to double quite a bit if he gets to that point, especially if they decide to stick a big PG on him -- like Kidd), the Heat will be a nasty team to knock out of the playoffs, if they weren't already, because not only will they be able to run, but they can also play a halfcourt game, slowing it down when they want, and controlling the tempo for the entire 48 minutes.