College Basketball Gameday Discussion

[Built Ford Tough]

Zeller is so fundamentally sound.

 

UNC really struggling to defend the 3 point line to start, though. Duke with 6 threes already. They really need to tighten up their perimeter defense. If they do that there really isn't any reason why they can't get a solid lead in this one considering they are only down 5 as is despite Duke's fantastic perimeter shooting.

 

Nice move by Barnes to get to the line. Great up fake followed by a nice move to go under the defender who left his feet.

[Built Ford Tough]

Really tough matchup for Barnes defensively when he is healthy. Him having a sprained ankle and having to guard Rivers? He really doesn't have a chance in that one. Rivers is just too quick. This is the type of game where UNC really misses Strickland's defense.

 

Zeller dominating insider, though. 19 points and 7 rebounds already. At the rate he is going he is going to have 20/10 before the half is even over.

[Built Ford Tough]

Nice to see Carolina finally using Barnes in the post. With Duke having a small perimeter featuring Curry, Dawkins and Rivers, there really is no reason why Barnes shouldn't make a living in the post tonight. He has a huge size, length and strength advantage over all three of those players and he has the post game to really exploit that. Nice move to draw the foul.

 

Rivers has been excellent for Duke in the first. For his first taste of this heated rivalry, he has played a fantastic half.

 

I'm also loving the chippiness of this game. Lots of trash talk, physical and some realy fiesty play. Henson especially has been playing with an edge.

[Built Ford Tough]

Marshall is just an outstanding floor general. It seems like he never makes a mistake out there. His lack of an outside shot, sub-par athleticism and poor defense will likely prevent him from being a great pro, but man, can he ever run a team. So much fun to watch.

 

Nice step back jumper from Barnes earlier, although that post up fade was just a terrible shot from him. He really isn't playing that well tonight. I don't know how much of it is because of his ankle or what, but he has been off.

 

Rivers with one fantastic take to the rim, but on the next possession he showed some of his flaws. He gets tunnel vision and has no left. When he drew the defense he had two wide open teammates on the perimeter and he also had the entire left side of the rim open. Instead, he forces a shot with his right and ends up getting it blocked.

[Built Ford Tough]

Barnes and Rivers going shot for shot for 2.5 staight possessions.

 

Barnes hits a three - Rivers hits a three

Barnes hits a 10 foot fade - Rivers hits another 3

Barnes hits a jumper

 

Then Rivers missed a three.

 

Pretty impressive showing from the last two #1 ranked high school players.

[Built Ford Tough]

Rivers completely lost Bullock on that backdoor cut leading to the easy duece.

 

Duke is really shooting themselves in the foot with all of these missed free throws. Curry missed the front end of a 1-and-1, Miles Plumlee misses 2 and then Rivers missed 2 straight. They hit their free throws and this game could possibly be a 6 point game. Instead, it is a 12 point Tar Heel lead.

 

Zeller just picked up his 4th foul and Marshall, Bullock and Barnes all have 3 as well.

[Built Ford Tough]

What a comeback from Duke. Down 10 with about 2 and a half minutes left in teh game.

 

Then Austin Rivers drains a three at the buzzer to give Duke the win. Guy was nasty all night long.

[ChosenOne]

Holy shit Rivers playing like a MAN!! Doc probably crying right now lmao!

[Kobe24]

What a finish to this game! Wowwww crazy. Go duke!

[Hayes1]

Austin Rivers!!!

Edited February 9, 2012 by Hayes1

[JYD]

Crazy finish. Great game. Neither team is that good IMO, NC had control all game and lost. Duke doesn't play defense. Shaky foul shooting team. Don't care for either, still believe Barnes is somewhat overrated.

 

Rivers balled out though, much respect.

[Built Ford Tough]

What makes you think Barnes is overrated?

 

He scored 25 points, 19 in the 2nd half, on 50% shooting in a game that features arguably the biggest rivalry in all of sports all while playing with a sprained ankle. I'd say he showed in this game just why he is a high regarded player.

 

I'd agree that he would be overrated if he was still getting the "next Kobe" hype that he had coming out of high school but that hype train left the station a long time ago. People question whether he is even going to be an All-Star at the next level.

 

It is also pretty funny that you think neither one of these teams are that good. If neither one of these teams are any good, exactly how many teams in college basketball are good? Kentucky, Cuse and OSU and only them?

[Built Ford Tough]

Video of the game winner:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1ewxVwhug&feature=player_embedded

 

That really was a rough final 15 seconds for Zeller. Tips the ball in his own basket to make it a 1 point game, goes one of two from the strip and gets the game winner scored on him. Ouch.

 

He really played that final possession poorly, though. With UNC up by 2 in that situation you do everything you can to provent a good look at the basket from three. He needed to get up tighter on Rivers. Even if Austin blew by him, it really wouldn't be a big deal. Worst case scenario you go into overtime in your own barn and with the way that game was going, Carolina would've likely pulled out the win. Duke just happened to go on a run at the perfect time but Carolina was clearly the better team tonight.

 

Instead, he sags off him way too much and allows him to dribble into an in rythym three to win the game which is basically the last thing you want to allow in that situation.

 

Not trying to take anything away from the shot because it was a hell of a shot from Rivers. Once Zeller missed the 2nd free throw and Rivers got the switch, you just knew he was going to drain a 3 for the win.

[JYD]

What makes you think Barnes is overrated?

 

He scored 25 points, 19 in the 2nd half, on 50% shooting in a game that features arguably the biggest rivalry in all of sports all while playing with a sprained ankle. I'd say he showed in this game just why he is a high regarded player.

 

I'd agree that he would be overrated if he was still getting the "next Kobe" hype that he had coming out of high school but that hype train left the station a long time ago. People question whether he is even going to be an All-Star at the next level.

 

It is also pretty funny that you think neither one of these teams are that good. If neither one of these teams are any good, exactly how many teams in college basketball are good? Kentucky, Cuse and OSU and only them?

A true star player is going to step up in that final minute or two and hit a big basket. I believe Barnes had a huge offensive foul where he went 1 on 4 and forced a shot. It was a terrible play. Not good from my star player at the end of the game. you got to get quality looks. A star player should close the game up 10 with a few minutes to play. He's a good player, but with all the hype that surrounded him, I'll pass.

 

I didn't meant isn't good in terms of good Duke and good UNC teams. I don't think either of these teams are real good, classic Duke teams or UNC teams.

 

Duke misses a lot of free throws, does not play good defense, and has had a hard time holding leads.

 

Carolina, well, last night sums it up. They have some nice players but they can be wildly inconsistent. Both are good teams, but I'm not a huge fan of either team in the big spot in the NCAA tournament. I think UK is by far the best team I've seen, most talented...and 'Cuse is 2nd.

 

Video of the game winner:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1ewxVwhug&feature=player_embedded

 

That really was a rough final 15 seconds for Zeller. Tips the ball in his own basket to make it a 1 point game, goes one of two from the strip and gets the game winner scored on him. Ouch.

 

He really played that final possession poorly, though. With UNC up by 2 in that situation you do everything you can to provent a good look at the basket from three. He needed to get up tighter on Rivers. Even if Austin blew by him, it really wouldn't be a big deal. Worst case scenario you go into overtime in your own barn and with the way that game was going, Carolina would've likely pulled out the win. Duke just happened to go on a run at the perfect time but Carolina was clearly the better team tonight.

 

Instead, he sags off him way too much and allows him to dribble into an in rythym three to win the game which is basically the last thing you want to allow in that situation.

 

Not trying to take anything away from the shot because it was a hell of a shot from Rivers. Once Zeller missed the 2nd free throw and Rivers got the switch, you just knew he was going to drain a 3 for the win.

The defense by Zeller on Rivers wasn't that bad. He should've played him a little tighter, but with the circumstances you can't risk fouling him (on a 3 pointer), and you also can't afford him to blow right by you right away (which he would've done).

 

Where Zeller made the mistake is he was not smart. Once Rivers was dribbling the ball for that long, you knew he was going to shoot. If you watch, Zeller takes a half step backwards right before Rivers goes up. If he takes that half step forward, he would've gotten his hand right in his face.

 

The defensive effort wasn't that bad, because you have to remember that Zeller is probably six inches taller than Rivers.

 

In my opinion, it was better offense than bad defense.

Edited February 9, 2012 by JYD

[Built Ford Tough]

A true star player is going to step up in that final minute or two and hit a big basket. I believe Barnes had a huge offensive foul where he went 1 on 4 and forced a shot. It was a terrible play. Not good from my star player at the end of the game. you got to get quality looks. A star player should close the game up 10 with a few minutes to play. He's a good player, but with all the hype that surrounded him, I'll pass.

 

The dude scored 19 points in the 2nd half of the game to extend UNC's lead from 3 to basically 10-12 for the entire 2nd half.

 

Yeah, the charge wasn't a good play on his part and he missed some free throws, but do those two plays suddenly mean he is overrated and cancel out all of the good things he did in not only that game, but numerous others throughout his college career?

 

- He scored 40 points in an overtime game last season against Clemson to get his team to the finals of the ACC Tournament.

- He drained a game winning 3 against Florida State with 2 seconds left.

- He hit another game winning 3 against Miami.

- In ACC games last season with less than 5 minutes and a 10 point game, Barnes shot 62% (don't have the numbers this year, but I'd bet they are greater than 50%)

- He scored something like 18 points, including 9 straight, in the 2nd half against Virgina Tech that blew what was a close game, and a game that UNC was losing at half, wide open.

 

Even in that game last night, Barnes hit a jumper with 2:38 left to give the Heels a 10 point lead.

 

I just love how the guy has proven to be one of the most clutch players in all of college basketball over the past two seasons and he makes one bad play (the charge) down the stretch of this game and suddenly he is overrated and can't close. If Zeller doesn't tip the ball in his own basket or go 2-4 from the free throw line in the final minute of this game, Barnes is being applauded for going off in the 2nd half and leading his team to the win all while playing on a sprained ankle that limited his mobility.

 

I didn't meant isn't good in terms of good Duke and good UNC teams. I don't think either of these teams are real good, classic Duke teams or UNC teams.

 

Duke misses a lot of free throws, does not play good defense, and has had a hard time holding leads.

 

Carolina, well, last night sums it up. They have some nice players but they can be wildly inconsistent. Both are good teams, but I'm not a huge fan of either team in the big spot in the NCAA tournament. I think UK is by far the best team I've seen, most talented...and 'Cuse is 2nd.

 

Fair enough, although when UNC is playing up to their potential, they are just as good as Kentucky is. They just are, like you said, inconsistent.

 

The defense by Zeller on Rivers wasn't that bad. He should've played him a little tighter, but with the circumstances you can't risk fouling him (on a 3 pointer), and you also can't afford him to blow right by you right away (which he would've done).

 

Where Zeller made the mistake is he was not smart. Once Rivers was dribbling the ball for that long, you knew he was going to shoot. If you watch, Zeller takes a half step backwards right before Rivers goes up. If he takes that half step forward, he would've gotten his hand right in his face.

 

The defensive effort wasn't that bad, because you have to remember that Zeller is probably six inches taller than Rivers.

 

In my opinion, it was better offense than bad defense.

 

Yes it was.

 

In that situation you have to get up on him. Who cares if he blows by you? It is a 2 point game. The worst case scenario is that he hits a shot and ties the game. With how hot Rivers was from three all night you absolutely have to get up on him and prevent him from getting a clear look at the basket. I'm not saying to get right up into his body where you risk fouling him, but you can't sag off him like Zeller did. Get up on him, take away the clear look from three and trust your teammates to rotate over if he does go by you.

 

The fact that Rivers was dribbling the ball for that long makes it even worse that Zeller gave him that much room. I know he is a 7 footer and Rivers is a 6'4 guard, but uou know that the guy is going to be pulling up for three not only because of that (his dribbling down the clock to the point where he could do nothing other than shoot), but because he was hot all game long from deep and road teams always go for the 3 in those situations. When he was just wasting clock there, you know he is going to take two dribbles and pull up so close the gap between the two of you and don't let him get the open look.

 

Rivers did a nice job of getting the switch, but other than that what exactly was so impressive about the offense? He was allowed to dribble into an in rythym three pointer without a hand in his face. That is bad defense, not good offense. I'm not trying to take anything away from the shot because it was nice, but the offensive sequence leading up to it was pretty basic and wouldn't have worked with better defense.

[JYD]

Yes it was.

 

In that situation you have to get up on him. Who cares if he blows by you? It is a 2 point game. The worst case scenario is that he hits a shot and ties the game. With how hot Rivers was from three all night you absolutely have to get up on him and prevent him from getting a clear look at the basket. I'm not saying to get right up into his body where you risk fouling him, but you can't sag off him like Zeller did. Get up on him, take away the clear look from three and trust your teammates to rotate over if he does go by you.

 

The fact that Rivers was dribbling the ball for that long makes it even worse that Zeller gave him that much room. I know he is a 7 footer and Rivers is a 6'4 guard, but uou know that the guy is going to be pulling up for three not only because of that (his dribbling down the clock to the point where he could do nothing other than shoot), but because he was hot all game long from deep and road teams always go for the 3 in those situations. When he was just wasting clock there, you know he is going to take two dribbles and pull up so close the gap between the two of you and don't let him get the open look.

 

Rivers did a nice job of getting the switch, but other than that what exactly was so impressive about the offense? He was allowed to dribble into an in rythym three pointer without a hand in his face. That is bad defense, not good offense. I'm not trying to take anything away from the shot because it was nice, but the offensive sequence leading up to it was pretty basic and wouldn't have worked with better defense.

I totally see what you are saying and had this argument with a friend of mine.

 

Let me start here in my response: First of all, you have to understand the height difference, if he gets too close too early Rivers goes right by him and ties the game on a high percentage layup, dunk, or possibly even an and1 if someone rotates too late. Of course, the rotation may go as planned and force a wild shot, most likely it won't because Rivers will be by Zeller too quick. And if someone does rotate over, then Curry or Dawkins or whomever has a WIDE OPEN look for either three or to tie game.

 

Secondly, that shot can't be more than a 30% look. Zeller is still at least 6 inches taller, and you still have to shoot over him. He didn't sag off THAT much. That's why I think it was better offense than terrible defense. He still had a quick release and did shoot it over Zeller who was not going to get too close for the foul call, or the dribble drive and1 possibility.

 

I still think the major mistake Zeller made is not getting a bit closer when Rivers continued to stand there and dribble. Right away to sag off was fine, but he should've taken a step in once he saw the clock was getting down to 2-1 seconds...he had no option but to shoot.

Edited February 9, 2012 by JYD

[DunkinDerozan]

That was a good game. I have to admit, I got a bit distracted, started playing NBA 2K12 part way through but then went back to it. Barnes and Zeller impressed me, but Austin Rivers was the one who REALLY impressed me. Not only did he put up 29 points, but going 9-16 shooting too was great. Kendall Marshall was alright. He had a decent ammount of assists, but he rarely shot the ball. Obviously he's got two great players on his team that are ahead of him scoring wise, so he shouldn't shoot too much, but I wasn't impressed by what I saw. I liked Curry's brother. He has a nice shot, and shot 50% from three-point range. I'm a huge fan of Steph Curry, so just the thought of his brother probably made me over value him.

[Built Ford Tough]

I totally see what you are saying and had this argument with a friend of mine.

 

...

 

Meh, agree to disagree.

 

I understand where you are coming from, but given the circumstances (up by 2, less than 4 seconds left) I just can't defend Zeller giving Rivers that good of a look at the game winner. Maybe I was wrong in saying it was terrible defense, but I still stand by my initial stance of it being poor defense more than good offense.

 

Also, I forgot to mention this earlier in regards to your comment about this being a poor UNC team in comparision to years past, you should also keep in mind that they are without their starting shooting guard, backup point guard and best defender in Dexter Strickland who tore his ACL earlier this year. They have also been without Leslie McDonald, who was another rotation player, for the entire year as he tore his ACL earlier in the summer. Add those two into the lineup and this team would definitely look better, especially Strickland and his excellent perimeter defense.

 

Kendall Marshall was alright. He had a decent ammount of assists, but he rarely shot the ball. Obviously he's got two great players on his team that are ahead of him scoring wise, so he shouldn't shoot too much, but I wasn't impressed by what I saw.

 

I think you went into the game without realizing the type of player that Marshall is. He is a pure point guard in every sense of the word. His first reaction is to pass, second is to pass and third is to pass.

 

He isn't the type of player that is going to go out there and look for his own offense at all. In fact, he was actually more aggressive looking for his own shot last night than he usually is. He took 9 shots last night and only averages 5 attempts a game.

 

If you go into a game expecting to be wow'd by Marshall's shooting or scoring, you are going to be sorely disappointed. If you go into it expecting to see a fantastic floor general, a brilliant tempo controller, superb passer and excellent playmaker you will be impressed.

 

His lack of scoring or shooting ability is going to hold him back from being a star at the next level, as well as his poor defense and athleticism (and I believe I mentioned that in this thread) but there isn't a better game manager in college basketball than Marshall.

[DunkinDerozan]

I think you went into the game without realizing the type of player that Marshall is. He is a pure point guard in every sense of the word. His first reaction is to pass, second is to pass and third is to pass.

 

He isn't the type of player that is going to go out there and look for his own offense at all. In fact, he was actually more aggressive looking for his own shot last night than he usually is. He took 9 shots last night and only averages 5 attempts a game.

 

If you go into a game expecting to be wow'd by Marshall's shooting or scoring, you are going to be sorely disappointed. If you go into it expecting to see a fantastic floor general, a brilliant tempo controller, superb passer and excellent playmaker you will be impressed.

 

His lack of scoring or shooting ability is going to hold him back from being a star at the next level, as well as his poor defense and athleticism (and I believe I mentioned that in this thread) but there isn't a better game manager in college basketball than Marshall.

 

Like I had said before, I had never really watched any of these guys play before, so I didn't really know what to expect. I just figured with him being the first or second ranked PG that he was probably a pretty good scorer.

 

Don't get me wrong though, i'm fine with playmaking PG's. I'd actually prefer one over a PG who can't make plays at all (i.e. Bayless). For a PG to be able to set up plays, they are going to have to have a decent scoring game though. That's why I wasn't overly impressed.

[Built Ford Tough]

Murray State, the final undefeated team, lost its first game today. Lost to Tennessee State by 4 points for their first lost of the season.

 

FYI: I merged the UNC/Duke game into this thread as well.

[AboveLegit]

Execution late in the second half was terrible for them, still not sold on Murray State when March rolls around.

[Built Ford Tough]

Baylor started 17-0.

 

Since then they are 5-5.

 

While it is somewhat understandable since 4 of those losses came against Kansas and Missouri, but today's loss against K-State was a bad one. They really benefitted from an easy OOC schedule and it is showing with their lackluster play in Big 12 conference play.

[Built Ford Tough]

Davis' presence on defense is just stupid.

 

Ole Miss guards are just throwing the ball as high in the air as possible to avoid getting their shot blocked. The worst thing about it, Davis is still blocking these high arcing floaters as he already has 3 blocks.

 

Witjler also showed a pretty nice move in the post a little while ago. I haven't seen that from him so far this season as basically everything I've seen from him consists of him bombing from distance.

[Built Ford Tough]

Davis goes to the bench with 2 fouls and Ole Miss goes on a 9-0 with him on the bench to tie the game. Just goes to show how much of a presence he has on the floor.

 

Miller just had a nasty throw down for Kentucky.

 

Meanwhile, over in Chapel Hill, Harrison Barnes has 10 points and 5 boards against Clemson. He could easily have 16 as he had two 3's that went in and out. He does have 2 turnovers after forcing passes inside on his drives, but he has played a pretty solid game so far.

[Built Ford Tough]

I don't understand why Narcisse keeps on trying to fight over screens and really pressure Marshall. You want him to stay on the outside shooting jumpers. You don't want him getting into the paint where he can create for others or get open layups. That is three plays this half where Narcisse either fought over the top of a screen or got right up on Marshall and all 3 times he has gotten into the paint for either a layup or found a teammate for an open shoot.

 

Just bad defense. You have to realize who it is your are guarding out there. Marshall is literally 0 threat from the perimeter.