Our recent struggles shouldn't surprise anyone

[The Artesticle]

this roster is too flawed, especially with steve blake, our best and only NBA quality point guard injured.

 

we have no starting point guard

 

no backup point guard (fisher needs to retire and morris is not ready to play)

 

no starting small forward (barnes is a backup and artest doesnt care about basketball anymore)

 

no backup center

 

gasol looks like the 2008 finals version, not the 2009/2010 version

 

bynum is not consistent

 

kobe is playing with one hand

 

new coach, new offense new defense and short training camp/no time to practice

 

core average age is 30 something, which doesnt bode well for a condensed schedule

 

also not factoring in the offseason drama which stern caused, and kobe's divorce...

 

if we make it into the playoffs i wouldnt be surprised if we get bounced in the first round, unless we make some deals.

Edited January 23, 2012 by The Artesticle

[Make It Naaaashty]

All I see are excuses.

[Real Deal]

Said quite a bit five days before the season even started (on TLN), and people just didn't want to believe it. Too early in the season, I guess.

 

http://lakernation.com/forums/index.php?/topic/52391-the-lakers-offense-and-defense

I don't want to dive into this too much, but I probably will. I'm not looking at the loss, but how we run our offense and execute our defense.

 

1) The Lakers are TRYING to run what the Spurs used to back when Mike Brown was assistant under Pop. It's a "four out, one in" offense (there are multiple names for it), and I don't think it's going to work. Popovich worked the opposing teams with a Duncan/Robinson duo, one being the greatest PF of all time, the other an incredibly underrated center that is one of the best we were watching in the 90's.

 

Let me put it this way: now we know why we signed Kapono and Murphy, and why we drafted Goudelock.

 

My gripe with it all is...Bynum is not an effective passer out of the post. You can tell him over and over again (Phil did), and it won't register. He will not create out of the post. He's not Hakeem, not Shaq, and he never will be. Sure, if you took Gasol's mentality (someone who wants to create) and mixed it with the aggressive low post play of Bynum, we'd have the perfect center...but that's not how it works. Gasol is not a low post player, and Drew is not a low post facilitator.

 

This also seems to take the ball out of Kobe's hands more often, which is okay...except, when he does get the ball, despite being at his "sweet spots" (as Brown noted he wanted to see happen), the defense doesn't have much of a problem doubling him because they are not worried about our three-point shooters. When Kobe catches at the elbow, for example, his positioning makes it easy for a perimeter defender to leave his man and double...and what man would he leave? Ron? He would gladly do it. Gasol? Sure thing.

 

We aren't going to get very far with this offense. Something has to give. I would not be surprised to see changes very early in the season.

 

2) Our defense isn't impressive, and not because of the system, but because of our players. At some point, even Brown's system will look bad. Our defensive transitions are terrible. Aside from McRoberts, I didn't see much weak side help. Recovering and contesting outside shots...didn't see much of it, and it's not always about effort, but our players are getting worked because the Clippers (who are a new team) used spacing to pull our defense apart, and when a defense feels disconnected, it tends to collapse inward, and that's where we let shooters drift to the outside, far too open for us to contest.

 

Half of our guys don't have the legs to cover that kind of ground for all 48 minutes, and this will get worse as we progress through an 82-game season (well...66 this year).

 

3) We will have no depth on our roster. I'm actually fine with Ebanks and Morris starting, but both will be eaten alive many times throughout the season. What does that matter, though, when I can say the same about Artest and Fisher/Blake? Artest will only be good for us defending Paul Pierce (can't say he'll be effective against Durant, as I've seen KD in practices, and he has been focusing on eliminating his problems against physical defenders...won't get into it, because I'll type forever, but you'll see this season). In other words, Ron shouldn't see much time on the court. His contract, and now his play, is a detriment to our game. I like the guy, but I have to be honest. Same with Fisher and Blake. I know just how bad Fisher will play this season, so I didn't need to see him...but Blake does not rake in enough defensive attention to create for anyone, and a simple post-entry pass every time down the court doesn't make him any more valuable than Darius Morris.

 

Outside of McRoberts, who will be a pretty good sixth man for us, we won't have much. Barnes isn't the same player we saw in his early years with other teams...just too many minor injuries stacking up and changing his game. Goudelock could be fine, but the verdict is still out on him. Walton is done. Fisher is done for 95% of the minutes he will play (I'll give him the green light to shoot a clutch shot at the end of the game, but that doesn't make up for his bad play for the other 20 minutes or so).

 

I'd like to see us do something with that TPE, even if it means getting a starting PG or SF...but looking at other rosters, I'm not sure what would be available right now, aside from dealing Drew and the TPE to Orlando, which I would do in a heartbeat.

 

--------

 

Again, this isn't about us losing. I expected the loss, as long as the Clippers were going to play Griffin, CP3 and their starting unit for a significant amount of time. As I said in another topic, the Clippers put together a team of guys that compliment each other well.

 

The fact is, our team of guys only compliment each other in the triangle offense, and when Kobe is able to dominate. Rewrite the script, and expect more out of our post...we don't make it. Gasol is not a low post player, and Drew is not THAT big of a threat under the rim (and if he was, he would still decline to pass the ball). Brown needs to understand that this is NOT Tim Duncan and David Robinson. An offense that asks for our bigs to facilitate for Kobe? That hasn't happened since Shaq, and that was really only in the early stages of the dynasty.

 

Tonight, the Clippers ran through the motions. They played off of open shooters, took what was given to them. When we play them again (twice), in January...especially the late January game...they could be rolling, and I wouldn't be shocked to see them roll completely over us. Giving them a month to learn how to pick and roll with CP3, drawing up fast break plays with Griffin and Jordan running the sidelines...they didn't do that tonight, but they will soon. We were out there to win, not to experiment, and what we saw from our guys duplicated what we saw from them against the Dallas Mavericks, minus better play from Kobe...and that tells me nothing will change, because all of that was based on teams exploiting our many weaknesses, something that isn't hard to do against a team led by a 16-year veteran that needs his teammates to hit open shots, take the low post and attract defenders, and create a few shots of their own as he plays off the ball a bit.

 

In short, don't expect to see much improvement from last season. A healthy Kobe would've still seen a loss to an elite Dallas Mavericks team. The difference is, now, we have trashed an offense that led to five championship rings, and has been the staple in Kobe's career. We may see more athleticism on the defensive end, as guys like Ebanks, McRoberts and Morris will see time on the floor...but our defensive awareness will still suffer, and above everything else, our offense will be a thorn in our side, unless Brown realizes what he truly has in the frontcourt, and adjusts accordingly.

Their offensive and defensive strategies aren't going to change, unless Kobe steps in and really convinces Brown to apply triangle properties (and the players were trying it, but guys like Morris, Goudelock, and even Ebanks, were completely lost).

 

The point was to evaluate what we'll be doing this season, and seeing if the defensive scheme is going to make up for our lack of athleticism (which our players will never gain back) and age (which will never be reversed).

 

So, when you guys are complaining about how early it is to judge a team, it's not judging chemistry together...it's judging what has been put into place by our coaches, and how it fits players like Kobe, Gasol, and Drew...players that have been in the league long enough for us to know just how they play, how much they can/can't contribute, and how their injuries, age and weight plays an important role in things like positioning and overall roles on both ends of the court.

 

Nobody likes to hear bad news, but it's better to expect it than to be slapped in the face with it for an entire season. The Lakers will not thrive in this offense, and no matter the defensive system, guys like Ron and Fisher (even Kobe, depends on his mood) aren't going to recover well enough to defend shooters. LA will need to rely much more on the young talent, and if you're fine with Ebanks and Morris having large roles on either side of the ball...well, okay...but the fact remains that something has to give, and as it stands (and as it will stand for 66-plus), there are better teams in the East and West.

 

If you want the exception, the one thing that will change it all other than a massive tweak in this offense...it'll be Andrew Bynum going off, and I'm talking All-Star play, because the Lakers are going more to Drew than they ever have, and if he can do that AND stay in the game longer than 30 minutes a night, and play more than 50-60 games in a season (good luck, with an increased role), you'll see a contender that many will be afraid to play in the postseason. Will Drew create out of the post, though?

 

If Drew doesn't create out of the low post, we're in for trouble. Kobe will have to go off every game for us to win, shooters won't get their shots, and we will struggle against contenders.

 

Yeah, it's early, season hasn't started yet...but you'll see it, if we stick with this offense.

[Nitro]

RD, I disagree with you about Pau not being a post player...he absolutely is. I think a healthy Bynum has taken him out of the post the last 2 years. He started last season on fire, with Bynum out, and once Bynum came back he was never the same. He was also terrific in the 09 and 10 playoff runs with Bynum either hurt or completely out. Put Gasol at C and give him a PF like Amare/Bosh and I think you'd see the Pau we all expect.

 

Anyway, I've been saying it since last year, the Lakers NEED an injection of athleticism, specifically at the PG and SF positions. The offense was at its best the last few years when Ariza was knocking down 3pt shots and leaking out on the fastbreak for them, as well as making some strong cuts within the triangle. Barnes is a solid role player, but with 16 year veterans making up the backcourt, a PF who is probably more suited physically to play C, and a slowish C, the Lakers desperately need a spark out of that SF position. One who provides 3pt shooting, athleticism, and can spark the team on both ends of the floor. Of course, Fisher should have been replaced years ago, and now that the triangle is gone they really need a playmaker on offense. Kobe can't make things happen like he used to off the dribble or in the PnR, and with his messed up hands he is more TO prone as well. He should be used mostly for scoring and shouldn't have to handle so much of those duties at this stage of his career.

 

With the way this league is heading, I am not sure if the Gasol/Bynum twin-tower thing will bring them another championship. They are just too slow of a combo defensively, and offensively one or both will constantly be under-utilized. I think this could be a fundemental problem that will need to be fixed if they want to seriously compete. However, patching up those holes at PG and SF could be enough to get by, but I wouldn't bank on it.

[Real Deal]

RD, I disagree with you about Pau not being a post player...he absolutely is. I think a healthy Bynum has taken him out of the post the last 2 years. He started last season on fire, with Bynum out, and once Bynum came back he was never the same. He was also terrific in the 09 and 10 playoff runs with Bynum either hurt or completely out. Put Gasol at C and give him a PF like Amare/Bosh and I think you'd see the Pau we all expect.

Gasol openly admitted to Phil Jackson that he did not like playing center. I'll have to find the link later.

 

Pau absolutely loves the high post. If you tell him he can take 10 shots at the elbow against the Clippers coming up, he'll do it. That's where he wants to shoot the ball.

 

Having the bad hammy last year, and the injured shoulder this season, Gasol is not a low post player. What we need is a physical player that can be a threat to score all game long, for more than just 2-3 games (which means he will draw defensive attention in), but has the IQ to know when to pass the damn ball, instead of being a black hole.

 

Today, there is really just one thing that bothers me about Drew, and it's that he is oblivious to his surroundings. When he's asked to wait for the double, and it comes, he is already trying to figure out how the hell he's going to score over it...rather than looking around. Pisses me off to no end.

[Nitro]

Gasol openly admitted to Phil Jackson that he did not like playing center. I'll have to find the link later.

 

Pau absolutely loves the high post. If you tell him he can take 10 shots at the elbow against the Clippers coming up, he'll do it. That's where he wants to shoot the ball.

 

It doesn't matter what he wants. What matters is what makes the team most effective. When he plays center and is forced to play in the post, great things happen.

 

What we need is a physical player that can be a threat to score all game long, for more than just 2-3 games (which means he will draw defensive attention in), but has the IQ to know when to pass the damn ball, instead of being a black hole.

 

Sounds like Gasol with Bynum out/in a limited role.

 

Today, there is really just one thing that bothers me about Drew, and it's that he is oblivious to his surroundings. When he's asked to wait for the double, and it comes, he is already trying to figure out how the hell he's going to score over it...rather than looking around. Pisses me off to no end.

 

I agree, but passing out of the post is not an easy skill to learn, and I don't know if that'll ever be an asset in his game.

 

Even if he learns to pass out of the post a bit better, I still think there is a fundemental flaw in the Bynum/Gasol combo. If you are going to make Bynum the focal point down low, then he needs an athletic PF who can consistently knock down perimeter shots. As I said in my last post, Gasol is a C playing PF, and that makes their frontcourt quite unathletic and dry. Mix that with a backcourt with 32 combined playing years under their belt and that makes for a very unexplosive top 4 in the rotation. With teams like Miami, Denver, OKC and Portland who are so athletic top to bottom, and teams like Dallas who can really stretch the floor at 4 positions, that creates a lot of issues.

[Real Deal]

Sounds like Gasol with Bynum out/in a limited role.

Come on dude, Gasol is not a physical presence down low, and he's definitely not a willing scorer. He will not take that role. He didn't want to take 15 shots a night in Memphis, when Hubie was begging him to...and he hasn't done it in Los Angeles, even when Drew was in a suit on the bench.

 

When Drew missed the first four games of the year, Gasol wouldn't take more than 14 shots. Our first game against the Jazz, he played 37 minutes, took 11 total shots...and Kobe had just 17 shots. Same against the Knicks...Gasol with just 12 attempts, Kobe at 17. No Drew in either game.

 

It doesn't matter what he wants.

Yes, it does. If he doesn't want to do it, he won't. Laker fans have been drilling this dude about it for years. Even with Drew sitting, and Odom in (late in games last season, almost every game, because Jackson would not put Drew in for the final six minutes or so), Gasol acted like he was scared to death of the low post.

 

-----------

 

We needed that Gasol (the one you're talking about) against the Hornets and Mavericks in the playoffs last season. Even when Drew was sitting, he would not get into the low post, and he was pissed off when reporters asked if he was having issues with the Lakers. He played like utter crap for that very reason, and was a big part of why we were destroyed (aside from us not being able to defend a single shooter).

 

I'd direct you to all of the game topics from last season (on a Lakers site), where fans were screaming for him to get his ass on the block when Odom was in there. I was a part of that. Hell, the dude won't even take the ball to the rim, even with Drew stepping out, despite having an advantage against a lot of PF's he plays against.

 

I'm not saying Gasol would be bad in the post, because he's the only big we have that can create out of it. I'm saying he just won't do it, and Mike Brown asking him to...it won't work, even without Drew, because it didn't work out when Phil Jackson (master motivator and the guy that intimidates everyone on his roster) told him to take the low post and tear teams up in the final six minutes of games.

 

Gasol, being near the basket, is only good for offensive rebounds. He holds the ball forever, and teams will not double him. What does he do then? He shoots a fadeaway from the post, or he passes to Kobe with seconds on the clock.

 

This has been Gasol for a long, long time. He was big for us in 2009, sure...but in 2010 and last season, he ran away from contact and did not want any part of the low post, and this season, he came out and said he's actually wanting to take more shots from three...which is ridiculous, because he has a decent mid-range shot to begin with, and it only pulls him away from the rim even more. When he struggles, he says he wants more shots in the post...and what does he do? He isn't aggressive down there, and eventually takes the high post. Fail-proof with him.

[Real Deal]

Here...Gasol's first four games of this season, without Andrew Bynum playing a single minute (he was suspended).

 

http://i44.tinypic.com/24dmxrb.jpg

 

He refuses to play down low. He pulls the ball out and thinks he's Dirk. It never fails.

[Sħãlïq™]

Here...Gasol's first four games of this season, without Andrew Bynum playing a single minute (he was suspended).

 

http://i44.tinypic.com/24dmxrb.jpg

 

He refuses to play down low. He pulls the ball out and thinks he's Dirk. It never fails.

Damn, so true. BTW, if the season ended today the Lakers would not make playoffs(!). The Rockets just jumped into the 8th seed.

This Lake-show needs to do something and do it now...

Edited January 23, 2012 by Šhãłïq

[Need4Sheed]

All I see are excuses.

 

haha would high 5 IRL