Past versus present: the point guard position

[i am batman u die now]

http://www.nba4all.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/russell-westbrook.jpg

 

You remember the older point guards, right? Stockton, Cousy, Maravich, Kidd, Nash, they all have one glaring thing in common: Passing.

 

In today's NBA world, fundamentals aren't as relevant as they where back in the day. The new breed of Point Guard is NOT to distribute the ball, but to score. Russell Westbrook is a prime example of that. He's an energetic lightning bolt that can score in bunches, but fails to set up the statistically better player, Durant, on occasion.

 

Westbrook's efficiency is sub-par at times, when he shot terribly in the playoffs the TEAM suffered as well. Durant was starving for that extra pass or two, allowing himself to contribute to the team. Durant has the ability to take over a game, yet Westbrook does not seize that correctly, and places him on a pedigree below himself.

 

Kyrie Irving is a youngster being raised by bad parents. Obviously he can score in bunches, but his assists have been kind of down for his position, and his overall objective has been altered to fit this era. Can he improve? Yes! Will he? I sincerely doubt it - with how the league is today, he will most likely develop into a first option scorer.

 

Don't worry guys, there's hope for this style of basketball. His name? Ricky Rubio. Rubio's contagious passing is a bright spot for this game. With team members as athletic as Derrick Williams, he's in a very good position. The question is, can he keep it up with good play?

 

Can players who've adapted switch? Yes, but not fully. I hope the NBA improves it's overall game. Jason Kidd is almost forty, Nash is nearly forty, and the overall game is diminishing.

 

When you have players who can emotionally invest into a play, or a situation, players can adapt. Passing is an NBA form of artistry, and you can apply it to whoever is in the game. Creating space for great offensive players works wonders. Nash wouldn't be where he was today without elite ball skills. Amar'e wouldn't of developed such a strong game if Nash wasn't there.

 

Point Guards affect the development of good players. Imagine Shawn Kemp without Payton, or what about Stockton without Malone? Malone's career was spoon fed to him by John Stockton. Stockton's elite court vision and his seemingly ambidextrous hands where key. He was not turnover prone, he didn't go for the flash and dash, but the pass to win basketball games.

 

In conclusion, NBA players are evolving selfishly. Passing the rock is key to fundamentals. If your team's offense is limited, then this could be the reason why.

[DunkinDerozan]

Pretty good read. I think you should be added to the writing team. There are atleast a few guys who haven't even made a mention of writing anything yet.

[i am batman u die now]

Appreciated!

[Real Deal]

Chris Paul

Deron Williams

Rajon Rondo

 

Those are three of the five best PG's in the NBA today, all young, and they pass the ball very well. Rose and Westbrook are the two exceptions, of course, but I can't really say that today's PG's are going away from that. You named Rubio, and I gave you three above. What about John Wall and Kyle Lowry, as well?

[i am batman u die now]

Chris Paul

Deron Williams

Rajon Rondo

 

Those are three of the five best PG's in the NBA today, all young, and they pass the ball very well. Rose and Westbrook are the two exceptions, of course, but I can't really say that today's PG's are going away from that. You named Rubio, and I gave you three above. What about John Wall and Kyle Lowry, as well?

John Wall's turnover prone, his passing is spastic. Lowry is developing into a first option on offense, with his emphatic scoring for Houston. You named three elite point guards, what about the rest who aren't elite? What about Delonte West, Steph Curry, Jameer (heard he's been terrible), Jeff Teague? The average Joe point guard is evolving into offensive oriented players. Jameer is turning into a spot up three guy, Teague is Westbrook like without as good of a jumper, Curry's a three point guy too.

Edited January 28, 2012 by i am batman u die now

[i am batman u die now]

It's also not like those point guards are really young. Deron is approaching thirty, Paul has lob city plus his weak knees, Lowry and Wall are exceptions I guess. Look at these rookie numbers.

 

Kyrie is barely at 5 assists a game, even with a bad supporting cast that's unacceptable. His exact number is 4.9.

[ChosenOne]

Just a thought but when you mention Kyrie Irving you also have to consider the situation he has been put in. He doesn't have the players around him that can get them selves open and then knock down shots. In his situation today if he doesn't come out with a scoring mentality they get run out the gym.

 

Take today for example they played a weak Nets team, and even with his 32 points (60 fg%) they still managed to lose. He doesn't have the talent around him to win with if he decides to pass first. Another interesting fact to take a simple note of he only had one turnover compared to the rest of the teams 15.

[ChosenOne]

John Wall's turnover prone, his passing is spastic. Lowry is developing into a first option on offense, with his emphatic scoring for Houston. You named three elite point guards, what about the rest who aren't elite? What about Delonte West, Steph Curry, Jameer (heard he's been terrible), Jeff Teague? The average Joe point guard is evolving into offensive oriented players. Jameer is turning into a spot up three guy, Teague is Westbrook like without as good of a jumper, Curry's a three point guy too.

 

Lowery if our third option on offense after both Martin and Scola.

[i am batman u die now]

This article is opinionated, by the way. My articles are my perspectives on the league. I'm unsure of it's relevancy, but I found this statistic interesting.

 

CP3 (pass first) has a PER of 24.03%.

 

While Westbrook (scorer) has a PER of 21.77%.

 

Hmm. Nothing really interesting, but something I found odd.

[i am batman u die now]

Lowery if our third option on offense after both Martin and Scola.

He's had multiple 20+ point games though, Scola's been meh and Martin's putting up career lows.

[Real Deal]

John Wall's turnover prone, his passing is spastic.

Look at Nash's turnovers since 2005 (Nash is one player you named).

 

Lowry is developing into a first option on offense, with his emphatic scoring for Houston.

You mean like Pistol Pete was for most of his teams? He averaged up to 31 PPG at one point. Pistol is another you named.

 

You named three elite point guards, what about the rest who aren't elite?

And you named Stockton (90s), Cousy (50s), Maravich (70s), Kidd (90s-00s), and Nash (00s)...different decades. What about the rest who weren't elite? Hersey Hawkins didn't pass the ball like a PG. Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf? Gus Williams? BJ Armstrong? World B. Free?

 

Dee Brown, Lindsey Hunter, David Wesley, Derek Fisher, Craig Hodges, Bimbo Coles, Dana Barros, Johnny Davis, Sedale Threatt, Robert Pack, Larry Drew, John Battle, Mookie Blaylock...what was the excuse when these PG's weren't going out and dominating the passing game (like a Nash or Magic)?

[Real Deal]

CP3 (pass first) has a PER of 24.03%.

 

While Westbrook (scorer) has a PER of 21.77%.

Rose is 23.87, basically the same as CP3's...while Nash (who is pass-first and averages 10 APG) is at 22.52.

 

Rondo (pass-first) is even lower than all of those above, at 20.44 (and he's averaging 9.4 APG), and Kyrie Irving is right above him.

 

PER is irrelevant.

[i am batman u die now]

Dee Brown, if I recall, wasn't a point guard. Wesley was a scrub. Fisher was passing, just not enough, cause he never had the talent. Hodges, again, SG.

 

Although Stockton DOMINATED the passing rankings, here's a fun fact: From 1984 to 1996, the assist leaders haven't gone under 10.

 

Now?

 

From 2000, the assist leaders have gone under 10 three times.

[Real Deal]

Dee Brown, if I recall, wasn't a point guard. Wesley was a scrub. Fisher was passing, just not enough, cause he never had the talent. Hodges, again, SG.

Both Brown and Hodges were forced to play the point half of the time they were in their lineups, especially Brown. When Sherman Douglas would get rest, Brown would move to the point, and Kevin Gamble would play the two (or Reggie Lewis).

 

Either way, there were plenty of PG's that didn't play the passing game very well.

 

Although Stockton DOMINATED the passing rankings, here's a fun fact: From 1984 to 1996, the assist leaders haven't gone under 10.

 

Now?

 

From 2000, the assist leaders have gone under 10 three times.

Hahaha, the assists leaders from 1984-1996 were all John Stockton and Magic Johnson, that's why. Just one season, Zeke led in assists...that's it. Stockton was there nine times in a row.

 

And that's going to happen, when you combine one of the greatest PG's in the history of the league with a top two PF in NBA history...or Magic with one of the greatest Lakers squads of all time (Showtime, with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Green and Scott).

[Real Deal]

Here...you gave me Bob Cousy for an example, so how's this: from 1947-1961, NO point guard had 10+ APG. Zero.

 

How about, since you gave me Pistol Pete...from 1968-1977, only TWO point guards had 10+ APG.

[i am batman u die now]

Both Brown and Hodges were forced to play the point half of the time they were in their lineups, especially Brown. When Sherman Douglas would get rest, Brown would move to the point, and Kevin Gamble would play the two (or Reggie Lewis).

 

Either way, there were plenty of PG's that didn't play the passing game very well.

 

 

Hahaha, the assists leaders from 1984-1996 were all John Stockton and Magic Johnson, that's why. Just one season, Zeke led in assists...that's it. Stockton was there nine times in a row.

 

And that's going to happen, when you combine one of the greatest PG's in the history of the league with a top two PF in NBA history...or Magic with one of the greatest Lakers squads of all time (Showtime, with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Green and Scott).

That's my point, RD. We have no great passer of our era. Oh, and on the Brown thing, that's your first issue.

[Real Deal]

Hell, Maravich never had 7+ APG in his career...so the number of assists have to be irrelevant.

[i am batman u die now]

Here...you gave me Bob Cousy for an example, so how's this: from 1947-1961, NO point guard had 10+ APG. Zero.

 

How about, since you gave me Pistol Pete...from 1968-1977, only TWO point guards had 10+ APG.

No 3PT line, worse (IMO) players to build around too. Teams only needed one good star to be a great team back then. Cousy played with Russell I believe, Russell was one of the least offensive players in the league back then. He was Ben Wallace, basically.

[i am batman u die now]

Hell, Maravich never had 7+ APG in his career...so the number of assists have to be irrelevant.

Maravich was a bad example.

[Real Deal]

That's my point, RD. We have no great passer of our era. Oh, and on the Brown thing, that's your first issue.

Well, again, if we go back to your numbers (about Magic and Stockton, really), you're giving me two great passers...one in the 80s, one in the 90s.

 

Only one of those won an NBA championship, despite being on a team with the second leading scorer in NBA history.

 

Why doesn't Stockton have a ring? Because a Bulls team, with a selfish scorer in MJ (he was selfish, as was some of the greatest scorers of all time) and no solid pass-first PG to create for anyone, won six in the 90s...and when Jordan wasn't around, it was Hakeem and his Rockets, who also didn't need an elite pass-first PG.

[Real Deal]

No 3PT line, worse (IMO) players to build around too. Teams only needed one good star to be a great team back then. Cousy played with Russell I believe, Russell was one of the least offensive players in the league back then. He was Ben Wallace, basically.

Cousy played with Heinsohn, Sharman and Ramsey, very good scorers...at the same time. Russell was in there as well, wasn't even a third option on that team...

[i am batman u die now]

You need one now, in my opinion. Tony Parker wasn't the best passer, but he did it. Fisher was an exception. Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups (not amazing numbers, but still, good passing) and some of those great Nash teams who made the WCF a few times. CP3's hornets, D-Will's Jazz squad. Don't you dare compare MJ to elite passing, cause he's MJ, put MJ on the damn Raptors they're near the top seed.

[Real Deal]

Maravich was a bad example.

Seems like Cousy was as well.

 

So we have Magic and Stockton, Nash and Kidd. Two are still playing in this era. One is from the 80s, one dominated the 90s. Nash and Kidd did most of their damage in the 2000s.

 

We can just take Nash and Kidd, then...same decade...and say we have CP3, Williams and Rondo. Sounds about right.

[i am batman u die now]

Right. We don't have an elite passer any longer, one era had Cousy (good for his era), then Magic, then Stock, Nash, Kidd, CP3, Willy.. but going fourth post 2000's, who do we have that can put up 10+ APG? CP3, D-Will, Rondo's supporting cast is leaving soon, so I see him dropping later on..

[i am batman u die now]

I love debating with you, RD, I feel more educated then I was previously.