Replace McGrady in Houston with LeBron from '04-'09

[Lightning28]

http://www.nba.com/media/mediacentralns/yao_lebron_200_040213.jpg

 

Tmac was the ultimate loser that pretty much wasted most of Yao's career in Houston. Yao was better off never playing with Tmac.

 

LeBron also never got to play with an elite offensive post player like Yao was. I mean who was LeBron's best post-player in Cleveland? Jamison? Big Z? LeBron was kind of wasted in Cleveland on that part. I always thought that LeBron needed a post-scorer and Jamison was never the answer to that question although Jamison in '10 was better than anything he ever had.

 

Now lets replace Tmac in Houston with LeBron from '04-'09. The only reason why I stopped at '09 opposed to '10 is because that was pretty much the last season Yao and Tmac were playing for Houston.

 

So from the '04-'05 season to the '08-'09 season. How do you think the duo of LeBron James and Yao Ming would have fared?

 

 

I think they would have won the championship in '08-'09 for sure though. I'm not so positive about the other seasons.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Lightning28

[YugoRocketsFan]

Whats up PFG

[Hayes1]

get out!

[Cleveland's Finest]

I don't see how LeBron was "wasted in Cleveland". I don't know what else you would want the Cavs to have done. It's not that easy to just get 2 MVP caliber players on a small market team. The wide array of talent we got was sufficient. Look at the guys he played with and how they are playing well on their respective teams now. Whether it's Mo in LAC, Delonte in Dallas, Jamison, Boobie, and Varejao in Cleveland, or Gooden in Milwaukee. They are all putting up at least 10 ppg (besides Gibson with 8), and that's with some of them playing much less minutes than when playing in Cleveland.

 

Besides, I think LeBron plays better with complementary talent than talent equal to his.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Cleveland's Finest

[Doc]

I don't see how LeBron was "wasted in Cleveland". I don't know what else you would want the Cavs to have done. It's not that easy to just get 2 MVP caliber players on a small market team. The wide array of talent we got was sufficient. Look at the guys he played with and how they are playing well on their respective teams now. Whether it's Mo in LAC, Delonte in Dallas, Jamison, Boobie, and Varejao in Cleveland, or Gooden in Milwaukee. They are all putting up at least 10 ppg (besides Gibson with 8), and that's with some of them playing much less minutes than when playing in Cleveland.

 

Besides, I think LeBron plays better with complementary talent than talent equal to his.

 

Agreed. I feel like a small market team did its best to try and keep their star there. They surrounded him with some good 2nd tier players like Mo and 'Twan, and had great role players in West, Gooden, Varerjao, Big Z, and Gibson.

 

The only thing I see something they could of done was try JJ for Amare.

[Lightning28]

I don't see how LeBron was "wasted in Cleveland". I don't know what else you would want the Cavs to have done. It's not that easy to just get 2 MVP caliber players on a small market team. The wide array of talent we got was sufficient. Look at the guys he played with and how they are playing well on their respective teams now. Whether it's Mo in LAC, Delonte in Dallas, Jamison, Boobie, and Varejao in Cleveland, or Gooden in Milwaukee. They are all putting up at least 10 ppg (besides Gibson with 8), and that's with some of them playing much less minutes than when playing in Cleveland.

 

Besides, I think LeBron plays better with complementary talent than talent equal to his.

He wasted in a sense that he didn't play with a post player. That's all I said, way to take the thread topic out of context though. How do you think LeBron-Yao would have done?

[Warren2ThaG]

TMac and LBJ are point forwards

[ChosenOne]

No. For the simple reason of that Tracy wasn't the only one that was hurt.

 

05-06 Yao only played 57 games, 06-07 Yao only played 48 games, 07-08 Yao only played 55 games.

 

I think they would have won the championship in '08-'09 for sure though. I'm not so positive about the other seasons.

 

I believe that would be a no again as Yao managed to get a stress fracture in the playoffs.

Edited February 13, 2012 by ChosenOne

[ChosenOne]

Whats up PFG

 

LMAO my first thought after reading the first sentence.

[Cleveland's Finest]

He wasted in a sense that he didn't play with a post player. That's all I said, way to take the thread topic out of context though. How do you think LeBron-Yao would have done?

 

My bad...well we did have Boozer, and a handshake and a promise kept us believing he would stay. Of course he eventually left.

 

Z was great for the years LBJ was here so we never needed a Center who could post up as he was a great spot up shooter/rebounder, so if we got one it'd probably be a PF. I guess the Cavs always thought we didn't need a post-up player because LBJ played so well with spot up shooters and active rebounders. They tried bringing in Shaq but that may not have been the best option, obviously looking back.

 

Amare is more of a jump shooter too, and I think they were hoping JJ would become a post-up PF, which looked possible, but when LBJ left, there was no use in keeping JJ because he was too inconsistent.

 

You are right though, the Cavs definitely could have used a post up player. The years when we had just Ben Wallace and Andy at PF, we needed more than Joe Smith in terms of scoring at that position.

 

LBJ and Yao probably would have worked. But you would need another big scorer like a Ray Allen for the big shots.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Cleveland's Finest

[Nitro]

From 04-08, they wouldn't have had much more success, besides maybe 06-07 where they would have probably gotten to the WCF, and 05-06 they would have made the playoffs since T-Mac was injured half that season. Yao was always missing half the season, and until 07-08 they never had much talent around T-Mac/Yao, but that was the year Yao missed the 2nd half of the season and the playoffs. They usually badly lacked a bench and 3rd guy who could make plays for himself, and until Scola/Landry came Juwan freakin' Howard was their starting PF. Before 07-08 the team was always slow, unathletic and old, and that wouldn't have changed with LeBron.

 

08-09 they would have been really, really dangerous, but once again Yao went down in the playoffs, and they wouldn't have won a title without him.

 

BTW, T-Mac absolutely carried that team from 04-08. He always gave at least 25/5/5, was the definition of point-forward, carried them to really good records with Yao out, and put up huge numbers in the playoffs. Until 08-09 when his body finally collapsed for good, he was the best and most important player on the team (just check the records without T-Mac, then without Yao).

[Lightning28]

I was thinking of healthy Yao though and they would definitely win it all in 2009. It's pathetic how Tmac had the best Center in the league and he still couldn't do jack shit with over those years.

[Dr. Feelgood]

I was thinking of healthy Yao though and they would definitely win it all in 2009. It's pathetic how Tmac had the best Center in the league and he still couldn't do jack shit with over those years.

 

Why are you calling TMac out? He put up amazing numbers when he played for the Rockets! Two superstars can't win a championship by themselves. Hell, we just saw THREE superstars fail to win a championship last year. You're being way to harsh on TMac. Get over yourself.

[Dr. Feelgood]

2004-2005 Houston Rockets starting lineup

PG - David Wesley

SG - Bob Sura

SF - Tracy McGrady (78 games played)

PF - Juwan Howard

C - Yao Ming (80 games played)

 

51-31, looking at that team, they don't have much outside of TMac and Yao.

 

2005-2006 Houston Rockets starting lineup

PG - Rafer Alston

SG - David Wesley

SF - Tracy McGrady (47 games played)

PF - Juwan Howard

C - Yao Ming (57 games played)

 

34-48 So now you're still starting aging players in Howard and Wesley with even Alston at 29 at this point. Plus, as you can see, TMac and Yao barely played half the season.

 

2006-2007 Houston Rockets starting lineup

PG - Rafer Alston

SG - Tracy McGrady (71 games played)

SF - Shane Battier

PF - Chuck Hayes/Juwan Howard

C - Yao Ming (48 games played)

 

52-30, despite Yao missing almost half the season, Tracy McGrady led yet another bad team into the playoffs (with the exception of Battier) carrying the team on his back.

 

2007-2008 Houston Rockets starting lineup

PG - Rafer Alston

SG - Tracy McGrady (62 games played)

SF - Shane Battier

PF - Chuck Hayes

C - Yao Ming (55 games played)

 

55-27, with Yao still missing the majority of the season. You're starting offensive liability Chuck Hayes, you've got a 31 year old ball hog of a PG in Alston. Again, TMac carried this team on his back when he was healthy, with not much help.

 

2008-2009 Houston Rockets starting lineup

PG - Rafer Alston/Aaron Brooks

SG - Tracy McGrady (35 games played)

SF - Metta World Peace

PF - Luis Scola

C - Yao Ming (77 games played)

 

53-29. Now you've got defensive specialist World Peace on the team with an even older Rafer Alston and a super raw Aaron Brooks, and Scola coming into his own. Yao has played much more games but at this point, TMac has been hit with injury after injury.

 

So I don't know where all the TMac hate is coming from. Looking at those teams, TMac didn't have much help outside of Yao Ming, the two were barely healthy together with the exception of their one season. Two superstars can't win it all, especially with a shoot first me first PG that they were starting in Alston.

[YugoRocketsFan]

Guys no need to waste paragraphs on a thread like this. This guy is the point forward guy and actually spent YEARS arguing that T-Mac was not a point forward even though he clearly was, and then he started saying T-Mac sucks a couple years ago because he pretty much gave up and started sucking.

[Hayes1]

He fail! TMAC was the shit!!! :glasses:

[Lightning28]

Why are you calling TMac out? He put up amazing numbers when he played for the Rockets! Two superstars can't win a championship by themselves. Hell, we just saw THREE superstars fail to win a championship last year. You're being way to harsh on TMac. Get over yourself.

Two superstars, can't get past the 1st round, sounds legit.

[YugoRocketsFan]

[Lkr]

PFG just can't live without OTR

[Nitro]

I was thinking of healthy Yao though and they would definitely win it all in 2009. It's pathetic how Tmac had the best Center in the league and he still couldn't do jack shit with over those years.

 

If Yao was healthy, the Rockets get a higher seed in both 2007 and 2008, and they get past the first round both of those seasons IMO. And why re-write history? Yao's injuries were a major reason those Rockets always falled short and were a disappointment.

 

And once again, T-Mac and Yao had garbage around them until 2008, and were on a 22 game winning streak when Yao went down for the season midway through. T-Mac was the best player on the team and besides Kobe, LeBron and Wade was THE BEST all-around offensive wing in the league in the mid '00's. Explosive 25PPG scorer who had every move in his arsenal and had 30ft range, amazing and efficient ballhandler, and had some of the best court vision and passing ability in the league. He also dominated pretty much every playoff series he played in with the Rockets, while Yao couldn't stay on the floor in the 2005 playoffs, got PUNKED by Carlos Boozer defensively (because he wasn't able to defend Okur) and got PUNKED by Okur offensively, and then in 2008 couldn't even play the series due to injury and that was the very best cast of surrounding T-Mac/Yao before T-Mac had microfracture and his career as a star pretty much ended.

 

Blaming T-Mac for those Rockets' failures is so misguided and wrong. Check the records of when T-Mac was out between 2004-2008, and then check the records when Yao was out those same seasons. T-Mac always kept them in contention without Yao and with Rafer [expletive]ing Alston as his 2nd option, while the team flopped without T-Mac. He was the best, most important player on those teams.

[Lightning28]

Can't even get past the 1st round with an elite big man and the best center, LOL, I'm sure LeBron would fail that badly or any other wing for that matter.

 

I remember the time McGrady cried due to being such a failure.

[Real Deal]

Was going to give you a fourth or fifth chance here, but you're far too annoying and not worth the time.

[Nitro]

Can't even get past the 1st round with an elite big man and the best center, LOL, I'm sure LeBron would fail that badly or any other wing for that matter.

 

I remember the time McGrady cried due to being such a failure.

 

How about you respond to the actual points I made in my post rather than this crap?

 

T-Mac was the 4th best wing in the NBA those seasons besides Kobe, Wade and LeBron. To say LeBron would have done better isn't a knock on T-Mac...he's gonna go down as a top 15 player all-time when it's all said and done. But if you think a Vince Carter, Joe Johnson or Carmelo would have done better with those teams, you are insane. But would have they won any championships those seasons? No. And to hit the reset button and make this hypothetical assuming Yao is healthy makes it completely insane...the 2nd biggest reason (besides lack of talent) they failed during the seasons they had the strongest chances to advance past the 1st round from 04-08 was Yao's injuries. In 2007, without Yao missing 30+ games, they would have been better than a 4th seed and wouldn't have ran into arguably the team's worst matchup, the Jazz (because Yao couldn't defend Okur due to his 3pt range, and then he got absolutely murdered by Boozer). In 2008, when they finally had enough help around T-Mac/Yao to make serious noise, he couldn't even play a single minute in the playoffs.

[Real Deal]

I know you were having fun with the topic, Nitro...were you around for his other five accounts, though?

[YugoRocketsFan]

How about you respond to the actual points I made in my post rather than this crap?

 

T-Mac was the 4th best wing in the NBA those seasons besides Kobe, Wade and LeBron. To say LeBron would have done better isn't a knock on T-Mac...he's gonna go down as a top 15 player all-time when it's all said and done. But if you think a Vince Carter, Joe Johnson or Carmelo would have done better with those teams, you are insane. But would have they won any championships those seasons? No. And to hit the reset button and make this hypothetical assuming Yao is healthy makes it completely insane...the 2nd biggest reason (besides lack of talent) they failed during the seasons they had the strongest chances to advance past the 1st round from 04-08 was Yao's injuries. In 2007, without Yao missing 30+ games, they would have been better than a 4th seed and wouldn't have ran into arguably the team's worst matchup, the Jazz (because Yao couldn't defend Okur due to his 3pt range, and then he got absolutely murdered by Boozer). In 2008, when they finally had enough help around T-Mac/Yao to make serious noise, he couldn't even play a single minute in the playoffs.

 

This thread makes me sad due to bad memories. Wuda been nice to see a healthy Yao + healthy T-Mac with a roster like in 2008-2009. Coulda been easily a 60 win team, + WCF.