ChosenOne Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) Who was the better overall player in his prime? Edited July 23, 2012 by ChosenOne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) As much as it hurts me to say it, Wade. In their prime, they were both 30PPG scorers, with T-Mac being the more versatile of the two, and Wade being more efficienct. In that area. At T-Mac's absolute peak (02-03), I'd say this area is a wash, but overall in their primes Wade was the better scorer. Wade got more assists, but I think T-Mac had the better court vision and was ultimately the better passer. T-Mac was the better rebounder due to his height. The only area that truly seperates the two is defense. Once T-Mac had to take on greater offensive responsibility, his defense steady plummeted. Wade was the much more aggressive defender of the two, and also better when it comes to fundementals. He knows how to be in better defensive position than T-Mac did, is better helping alter shots coming from the weakside, and effects passing lanes more than Mac ever did. Also, Wade I think is simply a better leader. T-Mac has never been a very vocal guy, and when the Magic were good they had the voice of Darrel Armstrong leading them along. Wade, meanwhile, took the burden on himself to lead the Heat, and what that resulted in was two seasons where the team clearly exceeded expectation. Edited July 22, 2012 by Nitro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 Wade, his resume speaks for itself IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted July 22, 2012 Owner Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 McGrady could have been, but he didn't work hard enough on the defensive end of the court, in games or in practices, and I believe he even admitted this at one point. Unlike Nitro, I'm going to hand the offensive side of the ball over to McGrady, simply because I think he had all the tools to beat you from anywhere on the floor, 23 feet in, and could pile on the points quicker than Wade. I know Wade was more efficient, but he's also more efficient than Kobe, and I'd never, ever take Wade over Kobe as a scorer. Not a chance. T-Mac was pretty amazing at his best, but unfortunately, he had two things going against him: the desire to improve all areas of his game, and the inability to do big things with an all-star teammate in Houston (Yao Ming). It would have been nice to see him with someone like that back in Orlando, when he was able to torch teams every single game, but sometimes, that's just how the chips fall. The defense separates the two, though, as Wade is one of the best shot-blocking guards ever, and both his on-ball and help pretty much trump what McGrady has ever done on that end. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNextBestThing Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 McGrady could have been, but he didn't work hard enough on the defensive end of the court, in games or in practices, and I believe he even admitted this at one point. Unlike Nitro, I'm going to hand the offensive side of the ball over to McGrady, simply because I think he had all the tools to beat you from anywhere on the floor, 23 feet in, and could pile on the points quicker than Wade. I know Wade was more efficient, but he's also more efficient than Kobe, and I'd never, ever take Wade over Kobe as a scorer. Not a chance. T-Mac was pretty amazing at his best, but unfortunately, he had two things going against him: the desire to improve all areas of his game, and the inability to do big things with an all-star teammate in Houston (Yao Ming). It would have been nice to see him with someone like that back in Orlando, when he was able to torch teams every single game, but sometimes, that's just how the chips fall. The defense separates the two, though, as Wade is one of the best shot-blocking guards ever, and both his on-ball and help pretty much trump what McGrady has ever done on that end. I can't remember exactly, but didn't Tracy and Yao only play a handful of games together due to injuries? And if memory serves, they were obscenely good when they actually did play together. Plus, there was that streak when Houston won about 100 games in a row without Yao. I get the Wase choice, especially defensively, but I take T-Mac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted July 22, 2012 Owner Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 I can't remember exactly, but didn't Tracy and Yao only play a handful of games together due to injuries? And if memory serves, they were obscenely good when they actually did play together. Plus, there was that streak when Houston won about 100 games in a row without Yao. I get the Wase choice, especially defensively, but I take T-Mac.They had 2-3 playoff runs together. I distinctly remember the one against the Jazz in 2006 or 2007, and their first year together, they played Dallas and lost in seven games. Yao was in his third season when McGrady arrived, and he was putting up decent numbers already (already a three-time all-star), and one of Yao's best statistical seasons was in 2007. The injuries along the way didn't help, but there were high expectations for those two together, and when they fell to Utah and Dallas (two teams the Rockets fans despised) in the first round, it hurt McGrady more than Yao. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayes1 Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) I would take T Mac most def. I agree With what RD said so I am not going to repeat, except the inability to do big things with Yao. It wasn't really his fault I mean, yeah the first year they struggled at the start but picked it up as they went on. They formed one of the most dominant duos in the Western Conference and finished 51–31 as the 5th seed in the playoffs, pretty good for first time together. Then when the second season came rolling that is when all the injuries occurred. Well not all the injuries of course but from then on injuries start occurring is what I meant. Mcgrady started off slowly the second season on down with his back injuries, even though he was returning the spasms was still a problem to him, but was still fighting through them. then next year that is when Yao got hurt and they couldn't stay on the court together at the same time. BUT they had chances though. I just think injuries played a big part in which they couldn't do more together and do some big things together as you said not just because Mcgrady couldn't do anything with Yao because he could. I think Mcgrady improved in all areas of his game scoring, passing, rebounding, but really didn't pay much attention on defense which is funny because he started out a defensive stopper. I Mean, he was still a hell of a defense player, I'm guessing he stopped playing defense because he had to do more on offense IDK but he was a good defensive player. Edited July 22, 2012 by Hayes1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 Unlike Nitro, I'm going to hand the offensive side of the ball over to McGrady, simply because I think he had all the tools to beat you from anywhere on the floor, 23 feet in, and could pile on the points quicker than Wade. I know Wade was more efficient, but he's also more efficient than Kobe, and I'd never, ever take Wade over Kobe as a scorer. Not a chance. There's a pretty big difference in efficiency between T-Mac and Kobe. T-Mac, besides 02-03 (which I mentioned in my above post), hovered around .530 TS% during his best years...Kobe was at around .565 TS% during his best years. Wade's around .580 TS% during his best years. Wade got to the line more than T-Mac and was a much better decision-maker when it came to shot selection, and it showed up in efficiency, which ultimately measures how successul you are at scoring over an 82-game season. Do you take that over simply having more variety in your arsenal? I do. With Kobe, it is different because the efficiency gap is a lot smaller. The only time having more variety is important is when you face defenses that can take away your strengths. However, Wade has completely destroyed some of the best defenses we have seen the last decade in the post-season...the '06 Pistons, '10 Celtics, '11 Mavs (might be a reach there), etc... That Celtic series he did it with literally no help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted July 22, 2012 Owner Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 There's a pretty big difference in efficiency between T-Mac and Kobe. T-Mac, besides 02-03 (which I mentioned in my above post), hovered around .530 TS% during his best years...Kobe was at around .565 TS% during his best years. Wade's around .580 TS% during his best years. Wade got to the line more than T-Mac and was a much better decision-maker when it came to shot selection, and it showed up in efficiency, which ultimately measures how successul you are at scoring over an 82-game season. Do you take that over simply having more variety in your arsenal? I do. With Kobe, it is different because the efficiency gap is a lot smaller. The only time having more variety is important is when you face defenses that can take away your strengths. However, Wade has completely destroyed some of the best defenses we have seen the last decade in the post-season...the '06 Pistons, '10 Celtics, '11 Mavs (might be a reach there), etc... That Celtic series he did it with literally no help.That's understandable, but McGrady's best seasons were in Orlando, and he literally had nothing outside of Pat Garrity (since Miller and Hill were injured most of the season in 2003, which is one of the main seasons I'm looking at). I've always held a lot of value in a guy that can score the ball from anywhere on the floor, especially when that guy has bad teammates. My favorite MJ wasn't in the late 80's, but the one we saw in 1992 and beyond, once he added the three to his arsenal. It's why I like Durant over LeBron on the offensive end, even though LeBron passes the ball far better (and for the record, I'm sure LeBron's TS% is probably the same as Durant's, but regardless, people would rather see LeBron go to the rim than Durant taking jumpers). It still isn't enough to give McGrady the nod, though...and that's even if I leave out the fact that he never advanced to the second round OR that Wade has two rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flight Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 Prime time McGrady is probably my favorite player I ever got to watch outside of prime time CP3 in New Orleans. That said, Wade gets the slight edge for his defense. I will say this though. I'd consider peak T-Mac one of the most unguardable players in league history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 That's understandable, but McGrady's best seasons were in Orlando, and he literally had nothing outside of Pat Garrity (since Miller and Hill were injured most of the season in 2003, which is one of the main seasons I'm looking at). I don't really consider that an excuse. Kobe had a few of his best seasons effiency-wise (including his best in 06-07) wish Odom, TRASH and company. And keep in mind, Wade was over .560-.570 TS% with a broken down Jermaine O'Neal as his 2nd option. And as I said in my first post, Mac's 02-03 season I'd probably give him the edge offensively over Wade's best season, but over a 3-4 year prime period, Wade definitely was the more effective offensive player IMO. And this is coming from the biggest T-Mac fan here. I've always held a lot of value in a guy that can score the ball from anywhere on the floor, especially when that guy has bad teammates. My favorite MJ wasn't in the late 80's, but the one we saw in 1992 and beyond, once he added the three to his arsenal. It's why I like Durant over LeBron on the offensive end, even though LeBron passes the ball far better (and for the record, I'm sure LeBron's TS% is probably the same as Durant's, but regardless, people would rather see LeBron go to the rim than Durant taking jumpers). I understand that, but if the guy makes bad decisions because of that versatility, it results in him being less effective over an 82-game season (which T-Mac was). And as I said before, Wade didn't need that versatility in his prime years to beat some terrific defenses in the post-season, where everyone gameplans to stop you. So, in this discussion, that ability to score from anywhere isn't exactly as important as it usually would be. And there is no way in hell I would take Durant over LeBron offensively...not even close. Maybe as a scorer (maybe), but LeBron can do so many more things on that end at an incredible level that Durant can (ballhandling, playmaking, posting up, etc...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JYD Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'll take Wade but people do seem to forget how good Tmac was when he was healthy/in his prime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'll take Wade but people do seem to forget how good Tmac was when he was healthy/in his prime. Absolutely. In 02-03 he was about as good as I've ever seen from a perimeter player since MJ. And his Rocket years are mad underrated because of the injuries and playoff failures. He carries those teams on his back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JYD Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Absolutely. In 02-03 he was about as good as I've ever seen from a perimeter player since MJ. And his Rocket years are mad underrated because of the injuries and playoff failures. He carries those teams on his back.No one ever gives McGrady any credit because he never had a lot of team success...dude was a hell of a player. I think Carmelo may go down with a similar fate if the Knicks don't do anything over the next few years in the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) No one ever gives McGrady any credit because he never had a lot of team success...dude was a hell of a player. Yes, he was. With the Magic he had so little talent, and with the Rockets his teammates were either extremely old (04-05...Sura, Barry, Howard, Wesley, etc..), offensively incompetent (06-07), or Yao wasn't around for the playoffs (07-08...that year they had a serious shot at getting to the Finals if they were healthy). I think Carmelo may go down with a similar fate if the Knicks don't do anything over the next few years in the playoffs. The issue that Melo has is that he really doesn't do much beside score. In basketball circles, T-Mac is far more respected as a player than Melo because he was multi-faceted. Melo's career path is more like Dominique Wilkens...great scorer, but didn't do a ton else, and he only got past the first round once I believe. Edited July 23, 2012 by Nitro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChosenOne Posted July 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Poll added. And i see you lurking AboveLegit, care to pitch in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AboveLegit Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) It's hard to truly measure these two side by side because their playing styles are so different. McGrady always floated around the 45% fg range, while Wade has never dipped below that number in his career. Wade shot 20 FG's per game just once in his career, while McGrady consistently hit that number in his prime. But, McGrady played on some pretty poor Magic teams that were built around having two superstar players and then winded up only having one. If the circumstances were more in his favor, I think we'd be looking at this a lot differently because he was poised to have some historic playoff runs. The first two McGrady-led Rockets teams that had made the playoffs had series that went to 7 games against teams that have both won more than 50 games, so him losing the last two series shouldn't be looked as something that McGrady completely lost (mainly because both teams they played were good teams and it would be kind degrading to say that they only won the series because McGrady came up short, which is sort of what people imply nowadays). One thing that gets overlooked when discussing McGrady's legacy is that Yao never really was a great playoff performer during his brief career. I think that's important to note because on top of the general consensus that McGrady never had help, even his second fiddle struggled at times and faded into the background. I'll never forget that game 7 loss to the Jazz where Yao was eaten alive by Carlos Boozer. The one indictment I have of McGrady is when he lost to the Hornets in 2002. Other than that, there are far too many extenuating circumstances for it to make sense to pin the blame on him. Anyways, I'll give the slight edge to Wade based on his all around game (he's far more advanced defensively). '08-09 Wade was the closest I've seen to Jordan, even more so than '02-03 Tmac. But as I stated, if McGrady had the privilege of playing with more talented teams, this discussion would be a lot different. Edited July 23, 2012 by AboveLegit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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