Lakers vs Heat

[kingfish]

Well, as currently constructed, who do you think is the better team?

 

Nash/Blake/Duhon

Kobe/Meeks

MWP/Ebanks

Gasol/Jamison

Dwight/Hill

 

 

Chalmers/Cole

Wade/Allen

Lebron/Lewis/Miller

Bosh/Haslem

Anthony/Pittman

[ChosenOne]

PG edge goes towards LA obviously.

SG is a draw imo.

SF edge goes to Miami because Artest sucks.

PF edge goes to LA obviously.

C edge goes to LA obviously.

 

I dont see how one would be able to say Miami is better on paper.

[Check my Stats]

I've never been a fan of looking at things position-by-position like that, at least as a way of comparing 2 teams. That said, I still think LA has the potential to be better. Obviously they have a ton of question marks, but that roster is just oozing with potential. They have the potential to kill Miami in their weakest area (inside) and have competent defenders on the Heat's 3 best players. Potentially, they could absolutely work Miami in a 7 game series.

 

However there are still a ton of question marks for LA, and the Heat still have the best player in the league (by a mile), and have 2 full years under their belts together, where the Lakers have 2 new players in the starting 5 and their whole offensive philosophy is going to change with Steve Nash in the fold.

 

On paper, sure LA has better players. But Miami has the best player in the world, 2 straight finals appearances, and LA has yet to play a game with their starting 5, which believe it or not, is a definite concern, especially when your coach is offensively incompetent. Needless to say, I'm really excited to see this LA team play, because of the potential they have to be the best in the league on offense and defense.

[Real Deal]

On paper, LA.

 

If they execute the Princeton to perfection, and utilize the Nash/Dwight P&R well, it's going to be nearly impossible to stop them. Too many options, and all of those options are different...a low post player that plays above the rim and can step out and face you up, a high post player that can create shots out of the low post and can hit 16-footers like Yao, a dynamic and complete perimeter player that has range out to 24 feet and an incredible post game, a PG that can facilitate very well and is one of the greatest shooting PG's in NBA history...

 

If you turn your head at their offense, you can't ignore the defense. Howard has never had a team like this, and yet, he found his way to the 2009 NBA Finals. Kobe and Ron can spend more time defending, and while Gasol is said to be soft, he still contests shots with his length, and two seven-footers in the lane is tough to deal with, no matter the player.

 

I feel like the only thing that can stop this team is an internal feud between Kobe and Dwight, which I doubt happens (aside from a major injury, which can stop any team dead in their tracks).

[kingfish]

We have plenty of depth so injuries wont really be a problem for us. Nash and Dwight is just an unstoppable combo for Miami, unless they want to put Wade on Nash which will render him useless offensively from having to chase Nash around pick and rolls.

 

And Dwight is going to be guarded by Bosh, Haslem, or Anthony.... Theres no chance of Dwight not dominating the Heat. He averaged almost 20/20 against Miami last season. Playing with Jameer Nelson and J Rich......

[AboveLegit]

Even at LA's best, I think Miami is better, and a large part of this rests on LeBron getting better next season. He's coming off a picture perfect year, and I think he's going to crank it up another notch the way Jordan did after winning his first title. Not to mention, Wade has had a full offseason of rest.

 

People (not on this board) are acting as if Dwight in the paint will neutralize LeBron. I don't see it, just a few years ago LBJ had one of the greatest statistical series ever against Dwight.

 

I don't trust LA's defense at the wings, and I can definitely see Spo rolling with Bron at the 4 and having Chalmers, Allen, Wade, and Bosh out there with him. You can't have Gasol out there on LBJ, that would spell trouble for LA in that instance.

 

The argument can definitely be made for LA (RD just did it), but I still like Miami over them.

[Cleveland's Finest]

LA has better offense, and Miami has better defense, and, as we know, defense wins championships. Just look at what Miami did to OKC last year.

 

In terms of star power, LA has a little more though. But I'm going with the Heat. As much as I like Kobe and will be rooting for Antawn, I just don't know. If Kobe plays top notch, it's a different story.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Cleveland's Finest

[Real Deal]

Miami has better defense

They did last year, but I don't know if they will this season.

 

1) Dwight Howard took a poor defensive team, in the Orlando Magic, and made them top three in the league on that end of the court. Without Howard, the rest of the team was ranked 29th (the 2010-11 team, with Carter, J-Rich, Nelson, Anderson, Shard, Hedo and Arenas, all guys who can't defend)..and with him, they pulled away with a rank of 3rd and held teams to under 44% shooting.

 

2) Ron Artest was injured up until April, the first 50 games of the season, and then his shooting and defense shot up significantly.

 

Dwight, Gasol (length), Kobe and Ron...on defense? If Howard could cover up four other players at a time, and lead his team to a top-ranked defense in the NBA, we should be more than fine. I feel bad for a lot of teams who still plan on slashing to the rim against Dwight and Pau. At least with Bynum, they can take advantage of Drew's incredibly bad pick and roll defense. Howard is 10 times better.

 

This team may very well remind me of the 2011 Mavericks, who couldn't keep up with Miami running up and down the court, but they had the goods, on both ends of the court, to take them out in the NBA Finals...despite being "too old to win it all" in the first place. I can't even say that Dallas team had the potential this Lakers team does, either.

 

C - Howard | Chandler

PF - Gasol | Nowitzki

SF - Artest | Marion

SG - Kobe | Terry

PG - Nash | Kidd

[Lkr]

MWP was injured? I just attributed it to being out of shape

[reno]

miami. lakers r too old and who knows how dwight howard will play after his injury.

[The Regime]

People (not on this board) are acting as if Dwight in the paint will neutralize LeBron. I don't see it, just a few years ago LBJ had one of the greatest statistical series ever against Dwight.

 

No way you can compare the Orlando Magic with the Lakers defensively. At the end of the day Lebron is still at his best when he's getting to the rim, and that going to be awfully tough with Dwight and Pau in the paint. Teams will live with Lebron shooting jump shots, he's still average at best.

[AboveLegit]

No way you can compare the Orlando Magic with the Lakers defensively. At the end of the day Lebron is still at his best when he's getting to the rim, and that going to be awfully tough with Dwight and Pau in the paint. Teams will live with Lebron shooting jump shots, he's still average at best.

Why aren't they comparable? Orlando was #1 in defense that season... Stop looking at personnel for a change.

 

One thing I can't stand... People saying Dwight made Orlando the best defense in the league. Sure there's a lot of truth to that, but don't act as if Stan Van Gundy had nothing to do with it. He's a phenomenal coach that knows how to teach his players defensive positioning despite their obvious flaws.

Edited August 17, 2012 by AboveLegit

[Dash]

Here's my beef with this matchup: how do the Miami Heat intend to "contain" Dwight Howard? I really think they screwed up by not by adding a strong defensive center such as Marcus Camby and opting for another shooter in Ray Allen. Not to say that Camby would turn the tide in an NBA Finals series but he certainly would have helped.

 

I do think that this would make an intense 7 games series that really could go either way. As dominate as the Lakers look on paper, you can't count out any team that has the best player in the world by a wide margin.

[SRV]

We can't contain Dwight, but we weren't supposed to contain any big men last season either, or the year before that. I think we can manage letting a big guy sort of have his way and get away with it.

[Real Deal]

One thing I can't stand... People saying Dwight made Orlando the best defense in the league. Sure there's a lot of truth to that, but don't act as if Stan Van Gundy had nothing to do with it. He's a phenomenal coach that knows how to teach his players defensive positioning despite their obvious flaws.

Defensive positioning...to lead their man into Howard.

 

SVG is a good defensive coach, but he's no Larry Brown.

 

It's no coincidence that Orlando started the season off as a very good defensive team...then ended up falling to 12th (first time SVG has ever seen his defense fall out of the top 10) once Howard was put on the shelf...and that was only 12 games.

 

Unless ESPN was lying about the stats, the Magic team from two seasons ago was ranked 3rd, defensively, overall. Remove Howard's allowed FG%, blocks, defensive rebounds, and shots made/missed at the rim from opponents (since he basically played most of the game), and Orlando was 29th. Gortat played in 25 of those 82 games. Brandon Bass was the backup center, Ryan Anderson also playing few minutes at the five.

 

In Miami, SVG had Shaq, Zo, Haslem, Wade and Posey...guys that were defensive specialists (except Shaq, but he took up space), so even Flip Saunders would be able to brag about his defensive-minded team (like he did with his Pistons).

 

Van Gundy can get some credit for their defense, but he contributed more to the "four out, one in" offense he installed, because it allowed Dwight to hit four open shooters along the perimeter. While Orlando decided to "live and die" by the three, if it wasn't for Howard being the defensive monster he was, they would have never defeated the Cavs or Celtics to get to the 2009 Finals.

 

Jameer Nelson should write a letter to Dwight, thanking him for his new contract, because otherwise, he would have looked like a complete and utter fool out there most of his career. Fisher was busting his ass, at one point, when Dwight was on the bench...and Fisher rarely takes anyone off the dribble.

[AboveLegit]

The 4 out 1 in offense had more to do with Otis Smith than anything else. Stan is the one who turned every boneheaded acquisition made by Otis into semi passable working parts. It was Otis who brought in one dimensional shooters to space the floor for Howard, Stan just made the logical decision in implementing that strategy. Honestly, even I could have made that decision.

 

I'm not trying to discredit Howard, I've always supported him as a player and I think he's a top 3 player in this league. But some forget that Orlando always ranked near the end of the spectrum in fouls per game, which is an added advantage to an already great defensive team. Dwight can't force players not to foul, and that's where Van Gundy's brilliance comes into play. He turned sub optimal defensive players into positive contributors on that side of the floor.

 

Sure, Dwight Howard helped, but it takes way more than one guy to make a defense. Van Gundy's coaching made all the difference.

 

And if you want to discredit for Van Gundy for having good defensive players, just look at the '04 Heat... that team ranked in the top 10 despite being just 2 games over .500. That team scratched and clawed it's way to the 2nd round, while taking a great Pacers team to 6 games (and they barely lost that final game too).

[TheNotoriousBANG]

Forget containing Dwight Howard

 

how in the Hell will the lakers contain lebron, lebron will bust through that lane and put dwight in foul trouble

lebron will find ray allen for the 3

lebron will draw defenders and get wade a perfect alley oop

if kobe catches fire switch lebron on him game over

 

lakers have no answer for James

and YES it matters, he's only a 3 time MVP

[Nitro]

Here's my beef with this matchup: how do the Miami Heat intend to "contain" Dwight Howard?

 

You contain him with mismatches and a team defensive philosophy. For the smaller guys on defense, you have to front him, have the perimeter players pressure the ball to make it a difficult pass, and have defenders on the wing be there to help deflect passes if LA tries it. Also, have Wade and James constantly attacking the rim, trying to get him in foul trouble. On the other side of the ball, put Howard in PnR's with weak PnR defenders (Nash, for instance), and force him to guard guys like Bosh who will take him away from the rim, or make him think twice at least about contesting penetration.

 

All easier said than done, especially with the players he has around him.

 

IMO, on paper, LA is the better team. Their top pieces fit better and in some ways have greater versatility, and they have a solid supporting cast. However, Miami figured out in the playoffs that a small-ball lineup with James at the 4 can work because of how good and versatile he is defensively and offensively. Now with Ray Allen, they will be even better with that small ball lineup because they will have another dead-eye shooter who is somewhat versatile and can make smart basketball decisions (unlike, say, Cole, Jones, Battier, and injured Miller).

 

Basically, the formula for beating this LA team is the much the same as it was last year because they still have a major hole defensively at PG, are relatively unathletic at 4 of the 5 positions in the starting lineup, and their core players aside from Howard are still getting up there in age. Kobe isn't a great spot-up shooter, Artest is still awful offensively, Pau will probably still wander the perimeter, and Howard has some limitations that could be magnified by his back issues. If you want to beat LA, you have to space them out and force Howard to make decisions on the defensive end once penetration is made, and on the other end of the floor you have to blitz them with aggressive defense and allow the athleticism on rotations to make up for missed opportunities.

[kingfish]

The thing that would worry me the most is Bosh hitting 3's against us. If he is at Center then that makes Howard have to play away from the rim. They will have great floor spacing this year with all that shooting. I think MWP is the difference in the series, if he can be the defensive player he used to then that gives us a huge advantage.

[TheNextBestThing]

The difference between Dwight and Joel Anthony is bigger than the difference between LeBron and Metta. And if Pau's weakness is physicality...is that supposed to mean Chris Bosh has an advantage? Bosh is made of the same notebook paper that Pau is, but much less skilled.

 

The only possible problem is LeBron going off. In that case, Metta could just kill him with a folding chair. He can't go an entire season without assaulting somebody anyway, so the Lakers just need to nudge his impulse in the right direction.

[Nitro]

The difference between Dwight and Joel Anthony is bigger than the difference between LeBron and Metta. And if Pau's weakness is physicality...is that supposed to mean Chris Bosh has an advantage? Bosh is made of the same notebook paper that Pau is, but much less skilled.

 

What makes you think Joel will see any significant playing time against Dwight? He was reduced to LeBron's towel bitch the last few series of their championship run.

[Real Deal]

Miami needs a Darko, or a healthy Oden. Joel Anthony and Chris Bosh aren't going to be able to contain Dwight, and if they front him, it won't matter too much because the Princeton is going to space the defense so far apart, Miami won't be able to collapse quick enough, and Howard is definitely not a Yao Ming (who had trouble with those that decided to front him).

 

I doubt Joel Anthony will matter.

 

It would be different if we didn't have Nash, Gasol and Kobe (all three who can hit shots, especially Nash), but when you stick those guys in the Princeton, and you plant Dwight down low, you can't give anyone along the perimeter (or within 16 feet of the rim) any room to do ANYTHING.

 

I'm almost inclined to say that Miami would have to go with a frontcourt of Bosh, Haslem and LeBron most of the game...because while Bron can keep Gasol out of the low post, he won't be as effective on him if Gasol is in this offense and holding the ball above his head 16 feet from the rim, and those passes to Dwight will be cake for him. You'd rather have LeBron roam a bit, and give up shots with him assigned to Ron.

 

I suspect EJ will then attempt to move Artest closer to the rim (he'll have that option), and suddenly, it complicates things again.

 

The offense is going to be difficult to play against, because it can be shifted with the drop of a hat. It's similar to the triangle and the read and react, in that manner...and the only thing the Lakers have to worry about is the shot clock (more of a college offense), but Sacramento had little problem with execution back when they were winning 50+ games, so we should be fine.

[Nitro]

Miami needs a Darko, or a healthy Oden. Joel Anthony and Chris Bosh aren't going to be able to contain Dwight, and if they front him, it won't matter too much because the Princeton is going to space the defense so far apart, Miami won't be able to collapse quick enough, and Howard is definitely not a Yao Ming (who had trouble with those that decided to front him).

 

I doubt Joel Anthony will matter.

 

It would be different if we didn't have Nash, Gasol and Kobe (all three who can hit shots, especially Nash), but when you stick those guys in the Princeton, and you plant Dwight down low, you can't give anyone along the perimeter (or within 16 feet of the rim) any room to do ANYTHING.

 

I'm almost inclined to say that Miami would have to go with a frontcourt of Bosh, Haslem and LeBron most of the game...because while Bron can keep Gasol out of the low post, he won't be as effective on him if Gasol is in this offense and holding the ball above his head 16 feet from the rim, and those passes to Dwight will be cake for him. You'd rather have LeBron roam a bit, and give up shots with him assigned to Ron.

 

I suspect EJ will then attempt to move Artest closer to the rim (he'll have that option), and suddenly, it complicates things again.

 

The offense is going to be difficult to play against, because it can be shifted with the drop of a hat. It's similar to the triangle and the read and react, in that manner...and the only thing the Lakers have to worry about is the shot clock (more of a college offense), but Sacramento had little problem with execution back when they were winning 50+ games, so we should be fine.

 

They said the same thing about Hibbert, and he destroyed the Heat when they had stiffs on him at center. Instead, what worked was a smaller lineup that was able to bother passes into the post, be pests and force him to work on defense.

 

Not saying Dwight is on Hibbert's level or his cast is on the level the Pacers were, but you don't beat guys like Howard or the Lakers just by throwing big bodies at him. I think Darko would be a nice addition, but the offense will take a huge hit with him getting big minutes over more versatile, well-rounded players at center.

 

Defending the Lakers offense is gonna be a bitch, but they still have holes. Kobe and Artest still aren't great spot-up shooters, and Gasol doesn't have legitimate 3pt range, so once again they will only have one guy to hit those open 3's with a collapsed defense. They are still unathletic at the wings, and against Miami that will be a big issue. If Iguodala, Pierce, and Deng couldn't defend LeBron efficiently, I doubt an old Ron Artest will. Kobe will have dificulty defending Wade on PnR's and on off-ball cuts, and Ray Allen will be a difficult matchup as well. In transition, Lakers have NO WAY of defending Miami, and Nash won't have many options on the fastbreak to make that an effective strategy against most teams.

 

And I'd MUCHHHHH rather see Gasol on the low block against LeBron than on the perimeter. He won't be able to put the ball on the floor against LeBron without his back to he basket, and in the post he'd be able to get any shot off without too much interferance. However, if LeBron-Gasol is a matchup that occurs, the Lakers are SCREWED...Gasol cannot guard LeBron in any situation, and if they switch Gasol onto one of their shooters because of that fact (Battier, for instance), that will also be a big issue.

 

As I said before, the key to beating the Lakers is the same as it was last season...athleticism. Not just in the open court, but everywhere. Miami will have a pretty big athletic advantage at at least 4 of the 5 positions, and will be more versatile as a unit on defense. Now that they have such a strong small-ball lineup that isn't so small because of LeBron, and one that's made even stronger with Ray Allen, they will NOT be easy to defend. I still think LA looks better on paper, but Miami will have a very strong chance of beating them in a series.

[Abro]

Still sticking with Miami. On paper definitely LA I must admit.. But the one thing Steve Nash is best at? Pick and roles, Miami excells at guarding pick and roles. They are fantastic at it. On offense I dont see howard even being that big of a threat with him guarding Bosh (who will take him away from the basket) leaving lanes for Lebron and Wade, if howard decides to collapse, kick it to Bosh.

 

Miami has always been able to contain Dwight fairly well, and got the most part get him into foul trouble, and thats with better 3pt threats than what thr Lakers have. Overrall, Kobe can't guard Wade, MWP can't guard Lebron and Nash just can't guard anybody. That alone will kill this Lakers team.

 

On defense, Miami can kill them with athleticism, fronting the post and letting lebron just manhandle Pau, guarding Nash and Howard will be tough, but not impossible, Kobe is played well by Wade and can also switch Lebron and Battier on him as well.

 

Overall... I'm not overly worried.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Abro

[EastCoastNiner]

PG edge goes towards LA obviously.

SG is a draw imo.

SF edge goes to Miami because Artest sucks.

PF edge goes to LA obviously.

C edge goes to LA obviously.

 

I dont see how one would be able to say Miami is better on paper.

 

Worst analysis I've ever seen.

 

 

SF edge goes to Miami because Artest sucks? No, it goes to Miami because LeBron is the best player in the NBA. Delusional fan is delusional.

 

PF edge goes to L.A. obviously? How does it obviously go to L.A.? Lakers fans are ALWAYS crying about Gasol, and Bosh played very well in the playoffs last year.

 

 

Strong pimping of Lakers players.