Ranking Historical Individual Play

[Flash]

IMO no one has ever impacted a game like Shaq though.

[Nitro]

I'm not even going to reply to the Jordan/LeBron stuff, because deep down, you know he's not close, unless you didn't watch Jordan with your own two eyes.

 

In terms of individual ability, it is close. Where they differ, and what gives Jordan the edge was his mentality. If LeBron had the mentality from last year his entire career, and racked up multiple championships, it wouldn't be a bad comparison at all. I'd still probably give Jordan the edge, but the gap wouldn't be big.

 

Two seasons, no more than that...and why are we talking about how Kobe shoots jumpers now? Kobe just came off a horrible shooting percentage (age is finally getting to him), and 2010-11 was injury-ridden. It only makes sense that LeBron's jumpshot percentage improved with Wade as his teammate, anyway.

 

You can go back to 08-09, LeBron last year shot better than Kobe on jumpers, with less of them assisted. I'm pretty sure LeBron shot better on jumpers last season than Kobe ever has, though you could look that one up yourself.

 

Once again....I am not saying Bron is a better jumpshooter than Kobe, and don't even care if he's better than a young MJ with it. He shoots jumper 70% of the time, does it pretty efficiently, and scores 27PPG on 53% from the field, 36% from 3 with a TS% of over .600. HE DOES NOT NEED TO BE AN ELITE JUMPSHOOTER TO SCORE!!!

 

My point stands. LeBron can hit open jumpers, but in games where a defensive-minded player isn't scared shitless of his drive to the rim (or he just gives him the step), LeBron struggles.

 

That is so incredibly false. Do I really need to bring Youtube into this arguement to PROVE to you LeBron can dominate and win games on contested jumpshots? Because there are plenty of them out there.

 

If you watched and remember the '11 ECF, then you are straight up talkng nonsense and you know it. Think Deng was scared shitless of him with the best defense, and best defensive frontcourt (depth wise, specifically) backing him up? And any player won't play his best if everything is a jumper. Kobe struggled, by his standard, against Boston in the Finals twice because they forced him into so many contested jumpers. If he could have gotten a few more easy looks at the rim like he did against basically every other team, he would have probably been at his usual averages. MJ struggled against teams who forced him into jumpers only as well.

 

And how can you not be scared of a 6'8'', 270lbs guy with some of the most freakish athleticism the NBA has ever seen? Much like with Shaq, you cannot throw a standard defense against LeBron. To defend him like you would defend Kobe would be stupid, and same vice versa.

 

Also, LeBron defends three positions. Pau Gasol is a center that plays like a small forward, so when he's out there muscling Gasol for two plays, that doesn't mean he's defending centers. He also gets toasted by PG's more often than not. I didn't see his ass move over and defend Rondo back in May/June, when Rondo decided to average 21/7/11 on nearly 50% FG, and going apeshit for 40+ in Game 2. He can take the call in one regular season game, but if he's not going to do it when Mario Chalmers, a gimpy Dwyane Wade, and Norris Cole are getting obliterated, then he doesn't defend the position well enough to be significant.

 

Kobe took Russell Westbrook for the rest of the LA/OKC series a few years back, when Fisher was a matador, and Westbrook didn't hit 40% again. He took LeBron in January and February of 2009, and held him to two bad games, despite destroying his finger in one of those. Kobe has defended three positions for most of his career.

 

LeBron defends 4 positions effectively. For example, he took David West a good chunk of the Indiana series and did a fine job. I've also seen him do a good job on guys like KG and Dwight in short spurts. He is stronger than many PF's, gives up maybe an inch, is more athletic and has a tremendous wingspan...he's had the physical ability for a couple years now.

 

He didn't move over to defend Rondo because of the threat Paul Pierce would be, who was KILLING Battier. LeBron shut Pierce down when he was his assignment. And you forget LeBron completely shutting down the MVP Derrick Rose in the '11 ECF. In that series he was able to do that because Deng was a minimal threat, as was Bogans. Against Boston, it's a completely different animal. Also, their goal was to make Rondo a scorer and basically shut everyone else down, which is why when Rondo went apeshit in Game 2 Boston STILL lost.

 

It really doesn't matter to me, anyway...don't even know why I brought Kobe up. Now that he's not cremating teams like he used to, everyone is opening up Basketball Reference again...so it's whatever.

 

Kobe is top 10 all-time, but at no point in his career was he a better, more complete basketball player than LeBron is now. Once LeBron put it all together...improving the poor defense he played earlier in his career, getting a respectable jumper, developing a post game, learning to play some off-ball, and gaining a mentality to tough it out and take over down the stretch of big games...once he got all that together, he became the guy everyone always envisioned him to be. His last season was historic, from the regular season to him hoisting up the trophy. Because of his physical tools, he simply had a higher ceiling than Kobe, and now finally has the set of tools and mentality to reach that potential.

 

That is not a knock on Kobe...that is how good I feel LeBron was last season. Best I've seen since prime Shaq, and that includes 35PPG Kobe, '09 Wade and '03 Duncan.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Nitro

[Real Deal]

You can go back to 08-09, LeBron last year shot better than Kobe on jumpers, with less of them assisted. I'm pretty sure LeBron shot better on jumpers last season than Kobe ever has, though you could look that one up yourself.

LeBron James

2011-12: 47.9%, 35% assisted

2010-11: 47.3%, 31% assisted

2009-10: 43.6%, 24% assisted

2008-09: 42.7%, 29% assisted

2007-08: 39.9%, 30% assisted

 

Kobe Bryant

2011-12: 43.6%, 45% assisted

2010-11: 46.3%, 38% assisted

2009-10: 46.2%, 39% assisted

2008-09: 46.1%, 37% assisted

2007-08: 45.7%, 42% assisted

 

Only two seasons, according to 82games.com. And of course LeBron is shooting better jumpers, now that he's in the post. You can say what you want, but that's a HUGE deal. Most of that efficiency has come in the post, to the point where he was actually leading the entire NBA in post FG percentage. Those are considered jumpshots.

 

Kobe's high % on jumpshots was 46.7% (back in 2005-06), but I only could see everything post-Shaq.

 

Kobe hasn't had the luxury to get down into the post for a long time. Older Kobe should be in there every chance he gets, but we had an overrated big man taking up space and doing absolutely nothing when it came to facilitating out of it.

 

As far as shots being assisted on, that's the triangle offense, and then the "four out, one in" from last season (which has similar triangle properties, and one of the biggest reasons why Kobe had a horrible shooting percentage, by the way). The offense that Kuester installed last season was insanely stupid, trying to run through Bynum and turn Kobe into some spot-up shooter...a player he clearly isn't, and will never be.

 

That is so incredibly false. Do I really need to bring Youtube into this arguement to PROVE to you LeBron can dominate and win games on contested jumpshots? Because there are plenty of them out there.

Yes, show me Youtube videos of LeBron doing that, and I'll give you my Youtube video of Kobe's defense, and some of the most incredible passes you've ever seen from him as well.

 

If you watched and remember the '11 ECF, then you are straight up talkng nonsense and you know it. Think Deng was scared shitless of him with the best defense, and best defensive frontcourt (depth wise, specifically) backing him up? And any player won't play his best if everything is a jumper. Kobe struggled, by his standard, against Boston in the Finals twice because they forced him into so many contested jumpers. If he could have gotten a few more easy looks at the rim like he did against basically every other team, he would have probably been at his usual averages. MJ struggled against teams who forced him into jumpers only as well.

Those two Boston teams were two of the top ten defensive teams of all time, along with a few from the Spurs' dynasty and the 2004 Detroit Pistons, and all of those teams centered their modified zone defensive schemes to stopping Kobe. There's no point in sticking that Celtics team in the same conversation with Thibs' Bulls, even though Thibodeau did tinker with Chicago until he created a very solid defensive unit (sans Boozer).

 

LeBron had three games of 42% or less shooting (one being 33%) in that five-game series, and if it wasn't for that one big game (Game 2), he would have seen his average fall well below the 44% he finished with. Are you telling me he tore them up with jumpers?

 

And how can you not be scared of a 6'8'', 270lbs guy with some of the most freakish athleticism the NBA has ever seen? Much like with Shaq, you cannot throw a standard defense against LeBron. To defend him like you would defend Kobe would be stupid, and same vice versa.

Minus the last two seasons, Kobe was getting doubled 23 feet away from the rim by many teams. In his 2005-06 season, he was getting doubled on the perimeter even without the ball in his hands, and I would know this more than anyone around here. Are you seriously telling me that teams do that with LeBron? Aside from Shaq, there has not been a single player that has drawn more defensive attention than Kobe Bryant in the last 20+ years I've been watching the game...not even Michael (although the rules were much different, but no point in diving into that). Come on dude...I know you don't believe teams give LeBron THAT much respect, especially with Wade and Bosh around, and the 4-5 different shooters the Heat can stick into the lineup.

 

 

LeBron defends 4 positions effectively. For example, he took David West a good chunk of the Indiana series and did a fine job. I've also seen him do a good job on guys like KG and Dwight in short spurts. He is stronger than many PF's, gives up maybe an inch, is more athletic and has a tremendous wingspan...he's had the physical ability for a couple years now.

I've never, in my life, seen LeBron defend Howard well enough to make me sit on my couch and think, "Holy shit, he should be doing this for longer than 2-3 minutes of play." Ever. David West and LeBron are the same size, and West plays like a small forward. Same with Garnett, who is a bit taller, but when does KG ever care enough to try and back anyone into the low post? He's as bad as Gasol at taking those 18-footers all game long.

 

Let's stick LeBron on Blake Griffin, a younger Carlos Boozer, Andrew Bynum, Tim Duncan, LaMarcus Aldridge, Karl Malone (hell, pick the 2004 Malone, if you want), Charles Barkley...and let's see how he fares.

 

I suppose, in the same way we can talk about how easy Wilt had it against 6'8" centers and forwards defending him, we can discuss these current hybrid PF's. But, that's cool...again, I have yet to see LeBron defend the PG position consistently. He got Rose, but as I mentioned earlier, Kobe locked up Westbrook and made him look like a role player just a few years back...doesn't mean he can go and defend CP3, Rose, D-Will, and Rondo for an entire game (well, he did do it with Rondo, also...but that's defensive IQ more than anything).

 

He didn't move over to defend Rondo because of the threat Paul Pierce would be, who was KILLING Battier.

Dude, what? Pierce shot over 45% in just five of 20 playoff games last year. He was limping around and injured, and was pathetic against the Heat. He shot 34% against the Heat in the series, 40% against Philly, 43% against Atlanta. He was at the point where he was missing wide-open threes against Miami...badly. When did he kill anyone on the court, from any team? He even shot poorly from the floor in the regular season, hadn't done that bad since 2004 (he was injured for half the season in 2007, so I don't bother counting that train wreck of a season).

 

Kobe is top 10 all-time, but at no point in his career was he a better, more complete basketball player than LeBron is now. Once LeBron put it all together...improving the poor defense he played earlier in his career, getting a respectable jumper, developing a post game, learning to play some off-ball, and gaining a mentality to tough it out and take over down the stretch of big games...once he got all that together, he became the guy everyone always envisioned him to be. His last season was historic, from the regular season to him hoisting up the trophy. Because of his physical tools, he simply had a higher ceiling than Kobe, and now finally has the set of tools and mentality to reach that potential.

 

That is not a knock on Kobe...that is how good I feel LeBron was last season. Best I've seen since prime Shaq, and that includes 35PPG Kobe, '09 Wade and '03 Duncan.

Can't agree. At his best, in his ultimate prime, Kobe was better...and it was unfortunate that he had to play with Kwame/Mihm, Smush and Walton starting.

 

Most of Kobe's prime seasons came with Shaq taking shots from him, clogging the paint, and creating for the shooters. Sure, Kobe's teammates (from Shaq to Gasol) helped Kobe win five rings, but once Gasol had entered the picture, Bryant was losing his athleticism, he had three fractured fingers (one severely), and his knee was nearly shot and already giving him problems.

 

LeBron has been fortunate to run through seven years of Cleveland, with shooters stacked all around him...not enough to win it all, but enough to give him the opportunity to do whatever he wanted in games. He finds a post game, and suddenly, Chris Bosh is sitting at the three, knocking them down against Boston, and taking tons of mid-range jumpers, and the center-less Heat are able to stick LeBron anywhere on the court.

 

You give me one game, against any elite team, with no teammates to help as much as usual. Keep it close the entire time, and have it come down to a clutch shot. Make sure the opposing player is the best scorer on the team. Who do I take? I'm taking the 2005-06 Kobe, and it's not even a question. It's close, though, and I will continue to say that (as much as it pains me to, because I hate LeBron's face), but I'm acting as if I was a neutral fan, and I'm taking Kobe the same way I would take Mike over LeBron and Kobe.

[Real Deal]

By the way, it wasn't about you saying LeBron is better...it was more about you leaving Kobe out of your list. That shocks me, because I just don't see how anyone can do that. Maybe today's Kobe, but not the guy that obliterated teams with absolutely no help, and an offense that wasn't fitting anyone but Bryant over a three-year time period. That's stuff that Jordan did, pre-Pip.