L.A. Lakers @ Milwaukee

**Real Deal** · December 19, 2009

This is incredible.

He didn't step into Kobe's path, he was already standing in place before Kobe even gathers his shot. You're confusing an insignificant shuffle with a blatant lateral step. Bogut was already in position, the shuffling is a difference of mere inches, and it's not unlike what happens on almost every charging call.

I'll post close-up shots after we lose to Boston, but in the meantime, study the Battier video thoroughly for examples of textbook charges up close. Battier shuffles—and takes even more blatant steps in some—in similar fashion to Bogut, and they're still called as charges.

And yes it's like the fumble situation, because you're wrong about this too.

I don't need to study clips of anything, and it sounds like to me you might as well be an NFL AND an NBA referee, since you're obviously right on every call they supposedly blow (lol).

Don't bother posting screenshots, since they aren't "conclusive evidence" of it (haha). Every shot you'll post shows he's standing in position to begin with, even if you take screens from 30 seconds pre-foul, so I don't even know what you're trying to prove. He moved his feet to get into position. Why else does someone move their feet after establishing position in a basketball game? Does he have Tourette Syndrome?

He moved his feet to get better position, not to tap his toes to the tune of a one-point loss, not because he slid on a player's sweat, not because his shoe was falling off...but to get into a better position. He was back-pedaling to get there, not sure what rule book you're looking in, but that means he's not there in time, that means it's a blocking foul, and that means Kobe pisses you off again, and again, and again.

Just get over it already. You can't be right all the time, Mason.

His Greatness · December 19, 2009

Blocks/Charge: A block/charge foul occurs when a defender tries to get in front of his man to stop him from going in that direction. If he does not get into a legal defensive position and contact occurs, it is a blocking foul. If he gets to a legal position and the offensive player runs into him it is an offensive foul. In both situations, if the contact is minimal, no foul may be called. To get into a legal position defending against the dribbler, the defender just needs to get in front of him. On a drive to the basket, the defender must get to his position before the shooter starts his upward shooting motion. For most other cases, the defender must get into position and allow enough distance for the offensive player to stop and/or change direction.

http://www.nba.com/features/misunderstoodrules_051128.html

Bogut was in clearly in front of Kobe in legal position, and established that legal position long before Bryant reached it. A shuffle to maintain that position doesn't negate that, because the adjustment was insignificant, and no lateral movement was blatant. Bogut shuffled to get better position, but the shuffle was unnecessary.

When taking a charge, does the defensive player have to be still?
Basketball rules state that if a defensive player is in a legal defensive stance or position, the defensive player has the right to move in order to maintain his legal positioning. A charging call can be made even if the defensive player has one or both feet off of the ground when the offensive player makes contact with the defensive player. The basketball rule of “verticality” applies here. If a defensive player jumps straight up to block a shot and the offensive player jumps into and creates contact with the defender, an offensive charging call could be made. (Therefore, it is more important if a defender is squared up and contact is made to the defender’s chest than if the defender is moving.)

http://www.betterbasketball.com/basketball-rules/

Defender in a legal defensive stance/position? Check. Defender at the spot before the ball-handler? Check. Defender squared up and took contact in his chest? Check.

A defensive player must be stationary to take a charge. Reality: Once a defensive player has obtained a legal guarding position, the defensive player may always move to maintain that guarding position and may even have one or both feet off the floor when contact occurs with the offensive player. Legal guarding position occurs when the defensive player has both feet on the floor and is facing the opponent. This applies to a defensive player who is defending the dribble.

http://www.nba.com/jrnba/officials/officials_guide_section15.html

Just for good measure.

Frame one:

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2605/frame1c.jpg

Bogut has already established position before Kobe begins his move.

Frame two:

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8035/frame2r.jpg

Right before contact; Bogut's feet begin shuffling, but he was already in legal position

Frame three:

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/51/frame3t.jpg

Contact. Bogut's feet have moved a mere inches from the first frame.

Is there movement? Absolutely. Enough to justify a blocking foul? Absolutely not. He had position the whole time.

Jenneral · December 19, 2009

Real,

I know Kobe's your man and all... but please for the sake of me continuing to respect your high basketball knowledge, stop acting as if this was a 100% right call. It was bull [expletive] and you know it. Your "amazing" team got lucky. Good for you.

You mentioned a healthy Kobe right? Well a Moute, Bogut, Redd, Jennings, and Ridnour are all banged up. So if they were all 100%, maybe we could have made a few more shots. Get real. :rolleyes:

**Real Deal** · December 19, 2009

Uh, Mason, again, most blocking fouls are called when the player is still moving his feet. I don't know what league you're watching, but my ideal referees stay consistent. I don't need to say it again. I suppose it's too bad the referees don't follow the written rules, but that's not my problem. In the NBA, in college, and when I've played ball, sliding your feet means you're still adjusting, and it's common sense you are. Still adjusting = not set. Simple as that.

Real,

I know Kobe's your man and all... but please for the sake of me continuing to respect your high basketball knowledge, stop acting as if this was a 100% right call. It was bull [expletive] and you know it. Your "amazing" team got lucky. Good for you.

You mentioned a healthy Kobe right? Well a Moute, Bogut, Redd, Jennings, and Ridnour are all banged up. So if they were all 100%, maybe we could have made a few more shots. Get real.

The Lakers were lucky? Damn dude, you're really pushing it there, haha. It's the Bucks. Get real. The Sixers just beat the Celtics, also...but I'd like for you to know that it means absolutely NOTHING.

If you want to put the word amazing in parenthesis, don't do it for the Lakers. You'd be foolish to say that, in a sarcastic tone, about the defending champs. It's the Bucks who were proven to be an early season fluke, playing the easiest teams in the league and are now one or two games below .500 on the season, and Brandon Jennings is now tailing Tyreke Evans as the best rookie in the league.

And all of the players you named as "banged up" hardly equal a healthy Kobe, truth be told.

That's real talk.

His Greatness · December 19, 2009

Uh, Mason, again, most blocking fouls are called when the player is still moving his feet. I don't know what league you're watching, but my ideal referees stay consistent. I don't need to say it again. I suppose it's too bad the referees don't follow the written rules, but that's not my problem. In the NBA, in college, and when I've played ball, sliding your feet means you're still adjusting, and it's common sense you are. Still adjusting = not set. Simple as that.

Categorically classifying sliding feet as a blocking foul would be irresponsible. In most cases, sliding feet may be a blocking foul, but the term is far too broad to always dismiss it as such.

There are no rules against adjusting (when you have position) or moving your feet to draw a charge; there never was, and that goes back to basic basketball. It was a charge.

**Real Deal** · December 19, 2009

In most cases, sliding feet may be a blocking foul, but the term is far too broad to always dismiss it as such.

There are no rules against adjusting (when you have position) or moving your feet to draw a charge; there never was, and that goes back to basic basketball. It was a charge.

You didn't even answer the question. Why adjust if you're in position?

He was adjusting because he wasn't in position. I can't believe that's so hard to understand. Moving his feet over more means he moves his body over more. Are his feet connected to his legs, connected to his body? Or are you telling me his body stayed in the same position, and his feet acted on their own and moved for no reason?

There are no rules against adjusting when you have position, but there are rules saying that you have to be IN POSITION. To get in position, you have to move your feet. Moving your feet gets you in position. If you continue to move your feet, you continue to get into position.

Basic logic is overwhelming in a debate about basic basketball. The dictionary defines adjusting as "to bring the parts of to a true or more effective relative position." Old position to new position...he wasn't in position. You're wrong.

His Greatness · December 19, 2009

To get into a legal position defending against the dribbler, the defender just needs to get in front of him. On a drive to the basket, the defender must get to his position before the shooter starts his upward shooting motion.

Basketball rules state that if a defensive player is in a legal defensive stance or position, the defensive player has the right to move in order to maintain his legal positioning.

Legal guarding position occurs when the defensive player has both feet on the floor and is facing the opponent.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2605/frame1c.jpg

It doesn't get clearer than that. Bogut moved... because Kobe moved. It's done. You're grasping at straws now.

You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2605/frame1c.jpg

You're wrong.

**Real Deal** · December 19, 2009

Basketball rules state that if a defensive player is in a legal defensive stance or position, the defensive player has the right to move in order to maintain his legal positioning.

LOL, don't translate that the wrong way, Mason. That's not saying he can slide over, it's saying that he can move his body. See your next quote:

Legal guarding position occurs when the defensive player has both feet on the floor and is facing the opponent.

Both feet on the floor.

So let's go back to logic: when you move your feet, that means that you don't have both feet on the floor.

Did Bogut float with both feet staying on the floor?

He moved to get in front of Bryant, who was already going for the shot. He didn't teleport there, he didn't float, and he didn't slither. He shuffled, scooted, stepped, whatever...but he moved into ANOTHER position on the floor, which means he wasn't in position. How does this not sink in?

Give up. You're just Pete Repeating yourself because you know you have no argument. :lol:

**Real Deal** · December 19, 2009

I have other things to discuss on the forums, don't have time for this. Most of the site saw the opposite of what you saw, the referees did, I did, and Kobe did. You're wrong. Translate the rules a little better and watch much more basketball to see how many blocking fouls are actually called when a player's feet are still moving before you enter a discussion like this again, dude.

The only time you ever discuss anything Kobe is in situations like this (you argued this when he dunked over Nash a long time ago, too), and the only time you discuss LeBron is when it involves something negative about him. You're quick to dive into any topic involving both players, and you won't listen to what anyone else says because, for some crazy reason, you believe you're right all the time.

Blocking foul, possibly no continuation due to the travel, basic basketball and basic logic, everyone knows it and the discussion is over as far as I'm concerned. Have fun talking to yourself.

His Greatness · December 19, 2009

This is getting embarrassing.

LOL, don't translate that the wrong way, Mason. That's not saying he can slide over, it's saying that he can move his body. See your next quote:

... No it's not. It's saying the player can move as much as he pleases to maintain legal position. Read again:

Once a defensive player has obtained a legal guarding position, the defensive player may always move to maintain that guarding position and may even have one or both feet off the floor when contact occurs with the offensive player.

the defensive player has the right to move in order to maintain his legal positioning

Both feet on the floor.

So let's go back to logic: when you move your feet, that means that you don't have both feet on the floor.

Legal guarding position was already established, hence he was able to legally move to draw a charge.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2605/frame1c.jpg

Feet are both down. There's your logic.

Did Bogut float with both feet staying on the floor?

He moved to get in front of Bryant, who was already going for the shot. He didn't teleport there, he didn't float, and he didn't slither. He shuffled, scooted, stepped, whatever...but he moved into ANOTHER position on the floor, which means he wasn't in position. How does this not sink in?

Give up. You're just Pete Repeating yourself because you know you have no argument.

Please stop. Bogut didn't move to get in front of Bryant, he was already there. Are you purposely being dense here? Just imagining what you want to see?

Look again, closely. Closely.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2605/frame1c.jpg

Kobe hasn't even gathered his shot yet. It's a charge. You're wrong.

I have other things to discuss on the forums, don't have time for this. Most of the site saw the opposite of what you saw, the referees did, I did, and Kobe did. You're wrong. Translate the rules a little better and watch much more basketball to see how many blocking fouls are actually called when a player's feet are still moving before you enter a discussion like this again, dude.

The only time you ever discuss anything Kobe is in situations like this (you argued this when he dunked over Nash a long time ago, too), and the only time you discuss LeBron is when it involves something negative about him. You're quick to dive into any topic involving both players, and you won't listen to what anyone else says because, for some crazy reason, you believe you're right all the time.

Blocking foul, possibly no continuation due to the travel, basic basketball and basic logic, everyone knows it and the discussion is over as far as I'm concerned. Have fun talking to yourself.

Cute post to save face.

I showed you the official rulebook, I cited the exact sections that clearly stated the rule, and I posted close-up pictures to further prove my point. You tried (and failed) to manipulate the text to favor your argument, and you also referenced personal experiences to disprove official rules. You can continue to patronize and take your shots at me but it doesn't hide the fact that you're wrong.

You're wrong.

and you won't listen to what anyone else says because, for some crazy reason, you believe you're right all the time.

I found this quote particularly amusing. I rebutted every one of your points, and you hopped along the debate only replying selectively to convenient portions of every post. It's like that in every debate with you.

I'll tell you this now: I'm wrong about a lot of things, but the difference is that I can admit it in the end. And I think it's only right that I believe I'm right when I'm arguing, otherwise... wtf is the point?

Also, you're wrong.

**Real Deal** · December 19, 2009

:rolleyes:

Gathering the shot happens when you pick up the ball. Bogut's right foot moved back, then forward, left foot slid to the left and back a bit. How about six pictures to show you?

Hell, there was hardly any contact to begin with, so I could argue it was a big flop, no foul at all, if anything.

http://i50.tinypic.com/243g68k.jpg

[mason]You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong.

You're wrong.[/mason]

Jenneral · December 19, 2009

Of course the majority of the site saw it the other way real, most of them are Laker homers as well. :rolleyes:

Pretty much all Non-Laker fans here are laughing at your ignorance got an obvious wrong call. Whatever though, you won, we lost. If this was any other team than your own you'd probably be a little more open minded instead of closing your eyes and demanding that your right like a little kid.

I guess you deserved to win since Kobe wasn't 100% and we all know what would've happened if he was. Maybe he would've went 3-15 in the first half instead of 3-9. Who knows.

Get over yourself.

His Greatness · December 19, 2009

I thought you were done?

Kobe picked up the ball to start his spin move, he didn't gather his shot until the fourth frame.

What exactly is your post trying to disprove? You're not saying anything new here. We've established that Bogut was moving, but we've also established that he had position.

**Real Deal** · December 19, 2009

Of course the majority of the site saw it the other way real, most of them are Laker homers as well.

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/7939-charge-or-block/page__view__findpost__p__77110 (Heat fan)

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/7939-charge-or-block/page__view__findpost__p__77130 (Wizards fan)

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/7939-charge-or-block/page__view__findpost__p__77222 (Celtics fan)

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/7939-charge-or-block/page__view__findpost__p__77232 (Knicks fan)

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/7939-charge-or-block/page__view__findpost__p__77238 (Magic fan)

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/7939-charge-or-block/page__view__findpost__p__77274 (Mavs fan)

http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/topic/7939-charge-or-block/page__view__findpost__p__77657 (Heat fan)

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Anything else, sir?

His Greatness · December 19, 2009

Of course the majority of the site saw it the other way real, most of them are Laker homers as well.

Pretty much all Non-Laker fans here are laughing at your ignorance got an obvious wrong call. Whatever though, you won, we lost. If this was any other team than your own you'd probably be a little more open minded instead of closing your eyes and demanding that your right like a little kid.

I guess you deserved to win since Kobe wasn't 100% and we all know what would've happened if he was. Maybe he would've went 3-15 in the first half instead of 3-9. Who knows.

Get over yourself.

Outside of this site, even Lakers fans have admitted that it was a charge.

**Real Deal** · December 20, 2009

I thought you were done?

Kobe picked up the ball to start his spin move, he didn't gather his shot until the fourth frame.

What exactly is your post trying to disprove? You're not saying anything new here. We've established that Bogut was moving, but we've also established that he had position.

Shot doesn't have anything to do with the foul. Are you telling us you can't be called for a blocking foul if the opposition is passing the ball?

He had position, he changed position. Once you change, you're not in position anymore. You can move a foot after finding position, but you can't shuffle both feet to adjust your entire body, as Bogut did.

I'm not done only because I'm bored as hell, waiting for the Saints to come on. Just trying to educate a few around here, really. I'm sure I've been to more camps than you, and I'm sure I've also assisted in more camps, so when coaches stress to us what a blocking foul is, on both the high school and college basketball level, it applies to any game...especially since you're talking "basic basketball" with all of us.

Order of events:

1) Bogut sets.

2) Kobe spins.

3) Bogut shuffles BOTH feet, re-positioning his body in front of Bryant after the spin and during contact with Bryant's right shoulder (if any at all).

Question asked:

1) The rules state that all you have to do is be in front of the player to be in legal position, neither feet needing to be on the floor. Why are fouls called, multiple times, on bigs who jump with their arms straight up?

2) Why are fouls called, multiple times, on bigs who don't jump, yet have their arms up, when the offensive player initiates contact?

3) To get into legal position, you move. To maintain it, you stay put. Why move again?

If anything, you have a case that it could be called either way...but using what you've said in the past, I don't see enough conclusive evidence that it was a charge, especially when Bogut's feet shuffled.

You said that in most cases, they call blocking foul with shuffling feet.

In most cases, sliding feet may be a blocking foul, but the term is far too broad to always dismiss it as such.

So, as I said, it is almost always (consistently) called a blocking foul. It shouldn't have changed versus the Bucks.

My side of the argument really is done now. I'm out for dinner.

Jenneral · December 20, 2009

Outside of this site, even Lakers fans have admitted that it was a charge.

Yeah I know. It's so obvious that most basketball fans with a decent IQ can figure it out. There will always be the hometeam homers though that fail to see what truly happened regardless as long as it's involving their beloved star.

His Greatness · December 20, 2009

Shot doesn't have anything to do with the foul. Are you telling us you can't be called for a blocking foul if the opposition is passing the ball?

You rolled your eyes and (erroneously) corrected my description of the sequence, and I corrected your incorrection. Kobe gathered his dribble when he picked up the ball, not his shot. I never said anything about the specifications for a blocking foul.

He had position, he changed position. Once you change, you're not in position anymore. You can move a foot after finding position, but you can't shuffle both feet to adjust your entire body, as Bogut did.

Please find me the exact rule that says that. Not your interpretation of the rule, but the actual rule.

I'm not done only because I'm bored as hell, waiting for the Saints to come on. Just trying to educate a few around here, really. I'm sure I've been to more camps than you, and I'm sure I've also assisted in more camps, so when coaches stress to us what a blocking foul is, on both the high school and college basketball level, it applies to any game...especially since you're talking "basic basketball" with all of us.

Impressive. I've learned more from five minutes on Google than you have through years of basketball camp.

1) The rules state that all you have to do is be in front of the player to be in legal position, neither feet needing to be on the floor. Why are fouls called, multiple times, on bigs who jump with their arms straight up?

2) Why are fouls called, multiple times, on bigs who don't jump, yet have their arms up, when the offensive player initiates contact?

Both questions are irrelevant, but probably because either those bigs didn't have position, there was too much contact, or the shot-taker was named Kobe Bryant.

Here's what the website says:

If a defensive player jumps straight up to block a shot and the offensive player jumps into and creates contact with the defender, an offensive charging call could be made.

And I'm sure you can find an answer here:

http://www.nba.com/videorulebook/category.html?cid=35

http://www.nba.com/videorulebook/category.html?cid=36

3) To get into legal position, you move. To maintain it, you stay put. Why move again?

From what I understand, legal position is established when both feet are on the ground. After the position is established, you're allowed to move.

If anything, you have a case that it could be called either way...but using what you've said in the past, I don't see enough conclusive evidence that it was a charge, especially when Bogut's feet shuffled.

You said that in most cases, they call blocking foul with shuffling feet.

It's too vague to pinpoint anything, but I probably should've specified that I wasn't talking about this situation, but rather other times when defenders shuffle to the spot in hopes of drawing a charge. That's often what you see in games, and you have it confused with this.

So, as I said, it is almost always (consistently) called a blocking foul. It shouldn't have changed versus the Bucks.

It's consistently called a blocking foul when it's a blatant blocking foul, or there's a tie (from what I've seen). This one was neither.

By the way, I just discovered this Video Rule Book at NBA.com, and it's great.

http://www.nba.com/videorulebook/category.html?cid=28

That should clear it up for good.

Poe · December 20, 2009

So... still arguing over that call made 4 days ago?

Jenneral · December 20, 2009

So... still arguing over that call made 4 days ago?

When ignorant Kobe lovers insist he doesn't get star calls, yes. <_<

**Real Deal** · December 20, 2009

When ignorant Kobe lovers insist he doesn't get star calls, yes. <_>

Guess who won't be posting on the site for a month if he continues throwing out personal attacks?

Stop bitching in every topic. You whined in the Cavs/Bucks topic, still whining in here, and now you're taking shots at me, which is a big mistake.

Don't give me a better reason to smile.

-----

And Mason, like I said, I guess the referees better start doing their job inconsistently, then, to satisfy you. It seems like you're usually the one complaining about refs these days, looking back at your posts, in both the NBA and NFL. By the textbook, it's a charge. By 20 years of NBA basketball (and high school, and college), it's not. Pretty weird.

Jenneral · December 20, 2009

Stop [expletive]ing in every topic. You whined in the Cavs/Bucks topic, still whining in here, and now you're taking shots at me, which is a big mistake.

If you don't mind, coiuld you please show me where I whined in the Cavs/Bucks topic?

**Real Deal** · December 20, 2009

If you don't mind, coiuld you please show me where I whined in the Cavs/Bucks topic?

Tough loss. At least you Cavs fans are nice about it though.

And your post about it in another topic I saw, don't remember which, about how it was fine if "the Refs and the Cavs" beat you guys.

Anything else?

Jenneral · December 20, 2009

And your post about it in another topic I saw, don't remember which, about how it was fine if "the Refs and the Cavs" beat you guys.

Anything else?

I'm not whining at all in that post. I used a SMILEY face (smile=happy). I think you're confused? :huh:

**Real Deal** · December 20, 2009

I'm not whining at all in that post. I used a SMILEY face (smile=happy). I think you're confused?

Please. You just aren't over the loss yet, so you brought it up by posting what I quoted.

Here, let me do what you did...

Good win for the Lakers tonight versus the Nets. At least you Nets fans aren't so whiny about losing to us.

L.A. Lakers @ Milwaukee

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