Jrue & Bynum VS CP3 & Griffin

[Sħãlïq™]

Hey, only I'm allowed to argue a point I don't believe in for the sake of discussion. Not saying you are, but since it was mentioned...that's my job, and mine alone, lol.

 

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Assuming you really do feel like Bynum and Jrue are a better duo, it's probably because you feel like the Clippers underachieved. I mean, I have trashed Pau Gasol so much over the last few years, sometimes where he does deserve it (like the last two playoff runs), but I've gone on to say that he's not a top five PF, and that wasn't true...just out of anger, or venting and trying to make sense of what happened.

 

Bynum isn't a proven #1 option yet, but really, Blake doesn't feel like one. I'd probably take Drew, only because he's a legitimate big man and he plays defense (he's really a better big man than Griffin, as Blake plays more like a small forward).

 

The difference between Jrue and CP3, though, is far more significant in the debate...and there's quite a difference. I like Jrue, but he's not CP3.

 

I was praising D-Will for being the best PG in the NBA over the last couple of seasons (when he was in Utah), but I almost forced myself to believe it because of Paul's injuries (I mean, look at Drew and how he was). CP3 has been outstanding.

I really do feel like Bynum and Jrue are the better duo and, come to think about it, I admit it's because I firmly think the Clippers underachieve. That's why I gave you a well-deserved +1 (Rep).

 

I'm not trashing CP3 and Griffin just out of anger, though.

After what I saw last season, I'm having trouble putting 'CP3' and 'outstanding' in the same line. And VDN doesn't really have THAT MUCH to do with CP3's struggles.

There's this 'Let's trash Jrue!' trend. I mean, I agree CP3 and Jrue ain't exactly on the same level... but doods is overrating CP3 and underrating Jrue way too much. That makes up for a certain distortion here.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Sħãlïq̵'

[Nitro]

Excuses...

 

No, it's called context. The more 3 pointers you take, the worse your 3pt % tends to be. Last year CP3 took a career high number of 3 pointers. The previous 2 seasons he took less 3's, and shot 41% from 3 one season, and 39% the other season...both higher than Holiday.

 

Also, factor in the defensive attention both receive. CP3 is one of the top 5-6 players in the league in terms of being game-planned for an receiving massive defensive attention. Holiday, meanwhile, wasn't even the primary playmaker on the Sixers last season (Iguodala was), 'nor was he the go-to scorer. He is simply an average role player on offense...nothing less, nothing more. And despite this, Paul is still far more efficient as a scorer while scoring more, and he averages the same number of turnovers while more than doubling Jrue in assists.

 

I don't even know what you're trying to argue. That Jru is even in the same tier of PG's that Paul is? He's not, and he's not even the tier below him. Paul, Williams, Nash, Rondo, Westbrook, Rose, Parker and Irving are MILES ahead of him...Wall, Curry, Lawson, Rubio, and Lowry are clearly a step up from him...and Collison, Conley, Kidd, Lin, Miller, Jennings and maybe a few more are all probably better as well. You can even make cases for guys like Teague, Thomas, Hincrich, Chalmers and Nelson being better as well.

 

That leaves Holiday as one of the worst starting PG's in the league. To compare him to a former #2 MVP candidate who has led multiple teams past the 1st round and is one of the greatest players statistically in NBA history is RIDICULOUS. To think the gap between the two isn't a mile is just crazy talk.

[Nitro]

After what I saw last season, I'm having trouble putting 'CP3' and 'outstanding' in the same line. And VDN doesn't really have THAT MUCH to do with CP3's struggles.

 

What struggles?!?

 

Last season CP3 was 3rd place in MVP voting, led the Clippers past the 1st round without homecourt advantage, was 2nd in the league in PER, averaged 20/9 on great efficiency while leading the league in steals, and made 1st team All-NBA and All-Defensive.

 

Again...what struggles? He didn't play amazing in the playoffs, but he faced an awesome defense in the 1st round while Griffin was MIA, and the 2nd round his team was simply way over-matched. Still, in the scope of the entire season, he was sensational.

[Sħãlïq™]

What struggles?!?

 

Last season CP3 was 3rd place in MVP voting, led the Clippers past the 1st round without homecourt advantage, was 2nd in the league in PER, averaged 20/9 on great efficiency while leading the league in steals, and made 1st team All-NBA and All-Defensive.

 

Again...what struggles? He didn't play amazing in the playoffs, but he faced an awesome defense in the 1st round while Griffin was MIA, and the 2nd round his team was simply way over-matched. Still, in the scope of the entire season, he was sensational.

^ That's your point of view. I respect that.

I am referring to his 4th-quarter struggles. After Chauncey went down, he started taking dumb decisions in crunchtime:

 

- like in that road game we lost to the Warriors - sure, DeAndre got owned by Ekpe Udoh, but we had the lead and the game in our hands, with less than a minute left, and CP3 BLEW that crucial possession, and that cost us the game. Man, he went for a floater or whatever against a 7-footer. Of course he'd get his ass blocked. You don't have to be a NBA analyst to figure that out.. <_<

 

- I also blame CP3 for that ugly loss in Nawleans;

 

- And his game-winner in Philly was a must, as he had made a terrible turnover a few possessions earlier, and he kinda redeemed for it (similar to the way Chauncey made up for his turnover by burying the game-winner in the game vs. Dallas);

 

There were some other examples of struggles I don't recall right now. Anyhow, I understand he felt pressure, and everyone was fine with him taking the last shot, but I think things would've went better if he tried and looked for ANY other teammate - at times you had Butler, Mo Williams and Foye ALL on the floor. Still I give CP3 the props and credit for it BUT saying CP3 was 'sensational' and 'amazing' 'is clearly an overstatement. CP3 was NOT amazing last season... Then again we seem to have different standards. And I'm Ok with that.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Sħãlïq̵'

[EastCoastNiner]

Jrue and Bynum without a doubt.

 

There's no reasons to choose the most over-rated PG in the NBA and a player with no offensive game besides alley-oops and rebounding.

 

 

Easy choice.

[NomarFachix]

http://i.imgur.com/wfqP7.jpg?1

[Nitro]

There were some other examples of struggles I don't recall right now. Anyhow, I understand he felt pressure, and everyone was fine with him taking the last shot, but I think things would've went better if he tried and looked for ANY other teammate - at times you had Butler, Mo Williams and Foye ALL on the floor. Still I give CP3 the props and credit for it BUT saying CP3 was 'sensational' and 'amazing' 'is clearly an overstatement. CP3 was NOT amazing last season... Then again we seem to have different standards. And I'm Ok with that.

 

http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM

 

Of the top 5 crunch-time scorers last season, Paul led the way in assists, steals, and FT% (which was important since he got there a lot in crunch-time). He also had a higher FG% in those situations than Durant and Melo, and only 2% of his FG's were assisted on which greatly detracts from FG%.

 

Basically, he wasn't terrible in clutch situations. In fact, he was one of the top performers in the entire league last season. Of course you can pick out some of his failures, which is easy since you so closely follow the Clippers, but amongst his peers he was on the elite side of things.

 

And crunch time performance is such a small percentage of a game, and especially over an entire season. What he did over the course of 48 minutes the entire season was phenominal....as I said before, look at the stats and accolades he accumulated last season, and how he turned the Clipper franchise around and led them to the 2nd round without homecourt.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Nitro

[Dizzle]

Good posts Shaliq.

 

This is indeed a solid comparison that should be taken into consideration. Andrew Bynum is one of the biggest beasts in the NBA. Without Kobe stealing his touches he will be able to thrive as the best offensive center in the NBA. That isn't saying he is no slouch defensively either, just not as good as Dwight. When Bynum is healthy the difference between him and Dwight is miniscule.

 

Bynum impacts the game more than Holiday, Paul, or Griffin. He is a 7 foot behemoth that anchors the paint for his team, a great rebounder, and unstoppable on the block. With his increased touches in Philadelphia he will take his place as one of the truly elite players in this league.

 

Chris Paul is good, but overrated nonetheless. Holiday is better than him on defense and having a dominant PG is overrated anyway. Look at the teams run by point guards. I think the last PG run title team was Magics Lakers and they had Kareem. Point guards arn't as ideal to build around as dominant centers/wing players.

 

I could put a [expletive]ing traffic cone on the court and it would play better than Blake "Most Overrated player in the NBA" Griffin.

 

Give me the combo with the elite center and elite defense at two positions.

[DunkinDerozan]

^^ 2 posts?

fhttp://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Ray_f9d7e4_493351.jpg

Edited September 22, 2012 by DemarDerozanDunk

[Sħãlïq™]

Good posts Shaliq.

 

This is indeed a solid comparison that should be taken into consideration. Andrew Bynum is one of the biggest beasts in the NBA. Without Kobe stealing his touches he will be able to thrive as the best offensive center in the NBA. That isn't saying he is no slouch defensively either, just not as good as Dwight. When Bynum is healthy the difference between him and Dwight is miniscule.

 

Bynum impacts the game more than Holiday, Paul, or Griffin. He is a 7 foot behemoth that anchors the paint for his team, a great rebounder, and unstoppable on the block. With his increased touches in Philadelphia he will take his place as one of the truly elite players in this league.

 

Chris Paul is good, but overrated nonetheless. Holiday is better than him on defense and having a dominant PG is overrated anyway. Look at the teams run by point guards. I think the last PG run title team was Magics Lakers and they had Kareem. Point guards arn't as ideal to build around as dominant centers/wing players.

 

I could put a [expletive]ing traffic cone on the court and it would play better than Blake "Most Overrated player in the NBA" Griffin.

 

Give me the combo with the elite center and elite defense at two positions.

^ My thoughts exactly.

 

BTW, I see 'Jrue and Bynum' got 3 votes already. Just out of curisity, who else but me voted for them? Dizzle? ECN?

Edited September 22, 2012 by Sħãlïq̵'

[Nitro]

Good posts Shaliq.

 

This is indeed a solid comparison that should be taken into consideration. Andrew Bynum is one of the biggest beasts in the NBA. Without Kobe stealing his touches he will be able to thrive as the best offensive center in the NBA. That isn't saying he is no slouch defensively either, just not as good as Dwight. When Bynum is healthy the difference between him and Dwight is miniscule.

 

Bynum impacts the game more than Holiday, Paul, or Griffin. He is a 7 foot behemoth that anchors the paint for his team, a great rebounder, and unstoppable on the block. With his increased touches in Philadelphia he will take his place as one of the truly elite players in this league

 

Chris Paul is good, but overrated nonetheless. Holiday is better than him on defense and having a dominant PG is overrated anyway. Look at the teams run by point guards. I think the last PG run title team was Magics Lakers and they had Kareem. Point guards arn't as ideal to build around as dominant centers/wing players.

 

 

Bynum doesn't impact the game more than Paul. First off, last year was the only season in the past 5 where Bynum played the equivilent of 65 games. Secondly, he still can't pass out of the post and is a blackhole down there, therefor you can't run an offense through him like other elite big men...not to mention even despite having the ball in his hands far less, he actually turns the ball over more than Paul does. Thirdly, he has trouble defending PnR's and is stiff defensively, and isn't an elite shotblocker. Lastly, for a dominant big man, he doesn't get to the foul line a ton (less than 6 attempts per game), and shoots below 70% there.

 

CP3 has been very durable over his career, he is normally just as/more efficient than Bynum as a scorer despite taking less shots while scoring more, he is among the best defensive players at his position, he is one of the top 3 playmakers in the league and by FAR the most efficient ballhandler in the NBA, and he is statistically one of the best clutch performers in the league while Bynum has NEVER been a go-to clutch player. Not to mention, due to not being a willing passer and being a poor FT shooter, it is doubtful he will ever be an elite clutch performer.

 

Big men normally do impact the game more than perimeter players, but the league is changing, and Bynum isn't Shaq, Hakeem or Duncan. No one has any idea how he will be able to handle the defensive attention/responsibility a #1 option does, he hasn't proven to be able to stay on the court throughout his career, he is a terrible and unwilling passer, his attitude has remained a big question mark, and he isn't an elite defensive player. Comparing him to a former #2 MVP candidate, one of the best players statistically in NBA history, a #1 option who has led teams deep in the playoffs, and guy who is consistently on All-Defensive teams...c'mon now.

[Paris]

by that logic , nobody in the league can be compared to duncan or kobe. both former mvps, more first team selections, proven #1 options, led teams deep into the playoffs, and have won 4 and 5 championships respectively with several finals mvps between them.

[AJFromTheDMV]

Well looking back @ this post, Holiday is one of the most improved players statistically this season.

[ChosenOne]

Well looking back @ this post, Holiday is one of the most improved players statistically this season.

 

Yes sir Jrue is a beast (as expected btw)

 

But also looking back at this post Bynum might not ever play the same again, if he ever plays again that is.

[NomarFachix]

 

Well looking back @ this post, Holiday is one of the most improved players statistically this season.

And yet still not in the class of a Chris Paul