NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Prospects are overrated today IMO. They got an ace and another mid rotation guy for maybes, and kept some good prospects (Ventura, Mondesi) in the process. I love this for KC, at some point you need to make moves to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phightins Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) Prospects are overrated today IMO. They got an ace and another mid rotation guy for maybes, and kept some good prospects (Ventura, Mondesi) in the process. I love this for KC, at some point you need to make moves to win. I generally agree but I think Myers is the closest thing to a lock that there is. He was Baseball America's minor league player of the year. I think I read somewhere that of the last 14 hitters to win that, 12 went on to become all stars. My numbers may be off a bit, but that award is no joke. Shields is awesome, but also older and close to the point in his career where he is extremely overpaid.  KC ownership supposedly told the entire baseball staff that if they didn't make a run this season, there would be major changes. So to me, this seems like a panic move. Giving up a potentially sick core for the next ten seasons in exchange for an outside chance to make the playoffs in 2013. For that prospect haul, KC should have been able to get David Price or Matt Moore, IMO. I don't think 2 years of James Shields (and a 50/50 chance that Wade Davis can even be a starter) is worth all that. Edited December 10, 2012 by Phightins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I do. At some point you need to end the rebuild stage and begin trying to compete. Shields is something like 2 in innings the past 5 years to Verlander. He's a stud, top of the rotation guy who can help push then to a playoff spot with Guthrie, Ervin Santana, Wade, etc. Lineup is already full of kids, might as well get ready to win now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 The same James Shields that is 31 years old and had a 5-something era a few years ago? Career 3.89 era only ever had 1 season when his era was below 3.50...he most def is not a stud or ace, he is a solid 2, great 3, especially at his age. Pointing out the innings he's pitched only further strengthens the argument of why this is a bad trade for the Royals 31 years old with about 1,500 major league innings on that arm already, I don't like it at all for the Royals. I honestly believe Wade Davis is just as valuable if not more than Shields in this trade. This is a move that keeps franchises mediocre for their existence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) You honestly believe that rotation is "dirty" are you trolling? lol AGE PLAYER CAREER ERA 31 - James Shields - 3.8933 - Jeremy Guthrie - 4.2830 - Ervin Santana - 4.3327 - Wade Davis - 3.9429 - Luke Hochevar - 5.39 Edited December 10, 2012 by fish7718 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 R.A. Dickey has a 3.98 career ERA #ace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 R.A. Dickey has a 3.98 career ERA #aceHaha R.A. is obviously very different circumstances, terrible comparison and way to just ignore everything I said... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Shields had 12th best AL ERA last year, so yeah, he's good enough to be someone's ace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 And to intimate that 31 is old for a pitcher is crazy talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phightins Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I'm only concerned about Shields' age because of how close he is to free agency. Joe Blanton just got a contract worth $8 million per year. This market is insane. Shields is going to make bank in two years. Â I get why the Royals did it, and I'll be happy for them if they make the playoffs. Shields will likely dominate that division. I just think that for Myers and Odorizzi, they should have gotten a younger guy who will be under team control for longer (AKA Price or Moore). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 And to intimate that 31 is old for a pitcher is crazy talk.Not saying he's lost talent old, I'm saying he's closer to injury old, and probably not going to get any better. Santana wasn't old, but he was closer to injury cause of all the innings he has pitched. Royals should have got Hellickson or Price to go along with their young bats. Bad trade for Royals, I would most def not fear that rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 They wanted Lester or Shields for Myers, IMO they picked the right guy. Shields will make a killing now that he's away from the Yankees/Sox/Jays and even the Orioles these days. They needed a guy to anchor the rotation if they were to compete, they did just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Santana got hurt because of size/motion/slider/innings, not just one issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 They wanted Lester or Shields for Myers, IMO they picked the right guy. Shields will make a killing now that he's away from the Yankees/Sox/Jays and even the Orioles these days. They needed a guy to anchor the rotation if they were to compete, they did just that.They aren't beating anyone this year with that team, Shields is only going to get older, was a bad deal. Santana got hurt because of size/motion/slider/innings, not just one issue.Regardless, more innings is not good for an arm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 The same James Shields that is 31 years old and had a 5-something era a few years ago?Justin Verlander had a near 5 ERA a few years ago. So what? Career 3.89 era only ever had 1 season when his era was below 3.50...he most def is not a stud or ace, he is a solid 2, great 3, especially at his age.He finished top 15 in AL ERA last year, so he's definitely capable of being an ace.. which is the #1 pitcher of a rotation. Career ERA has nothing to do with ace status, especially when you pitch in the AL Beast. To say he's merely a solid 2 is crazy. Pointing out the innings he's pitched only further strengthens the argument of why this is a bad trade for the Royals 31 years old with about 1,500 major league innings on that arm already, I don't like it at all for the Royals. I honestly believe Wade Davis is just as valuable if not more than Shields in this trade. This is a move that keeps franchises mediocre for their existence...He's pitched #2 innings to Verlander the past two years is the accurate stat, and it shows that not only is he crazy durable, but he's always keeping his team in games or he'd get the quick hook. No chance Wade Davis is more valuable, as he had his most productive season last year in the bullpen and has a career 4.22 ERA as a starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 You honestly believe that rotation is "dirty" are you trolling? lol AGE PLAYER CAREER ERA 31 - James Shields - 3.8933 - Jeremy Guthrie - 4.2830 - Ervin Santana - 4.3327 - Wade Davis - 3.9429 - Luke Hochevar - 5.39 Shields, Guthrie (3.16 ERA after leaving Colorado last year), Santana, Davis, Hochevar, Chen is a capable enough rotation to compete in the Central, sure. I think the Royals would happily take two high-3 and two low-4 ERAs this coming year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Haha R.A. is obviously very different circumstances, terrible comparison and way to just ignore everything I said...Exactly my point, you can't look at a career ERA and use that as the end-all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I'm only concerned about Shields' age because of how close he is to free agency. Joe Blanton just got a contract worth $8 million per year. This market is insane. Shields is going to make bank in two years. Â I get why the Royals did it, and I'll be happy for them if they make the playoffs. Shields will likely dominate that division. I just think that for Myers and Odorizzi, they should have gotten a younger guy who will be under team control for longer (AKA Price or Moore).He'll definitely make bank in two years, but what would they have done with Price? He's not far from free agency and would have commanded FARRRRR more in free agency, and I highly doubt he, Moore, or Hellickson were available. I'm never a fan of turning down a deal for the sake of unknowns, no matter the hype. I've seen far too many Milledge's, Andy LaRoche's, Andy Marte's, Felix Pie's, and Brandon Wood's to think anyone is a surefire player anymore. Give me the guy who's proven he can do it at the highest level and in the biggest situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phightins Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Another thing that scares me about Shields, that I had not thought about before... http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g96/philsphan1210/ScreenShot2012-12-10at54534PM.png I'm sure this will somewhat be cancelled out by the fact that he is leaving the AL East and going to a rather awful offensive division, but more evidence that maybe Shields isn't quite an "ace". I still think he will be very good in KC though, but I stand by my idea that KC should have gotten more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 They aren't beating anyone this year with that team, Shields is only going to get older, was a bad deal.Why not? They have a set rotation now with a legit ace, great corners with Moustakas and Hosmer, a legit young SS in Alcides Escobar, set corner OFers in Francoeur and Alex Gordon.. I don't see why this team can't play for, at worst, a wild card spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I hate when we go into multi quotes Justin Verlander had a near 5 ERA a few years ago. So what?Was 5 years ago when he was 25, as opposed to 3 years ago for Shields when he was 28, wasn't as shields, career era is much better than Shields's, Verlander 4 seasons under 3.50 ERA vs Shields 1 season under 3.50 lol, apples and oranges He finished top 15 in AL ERA last year, so he's definitely capable of being an ace.. which is the #1 pitcher of a rotation. Career ERA has nothing to do with ace status, especially when you pitch in the AL Beast. To say he's merely a solid 2 is crazy.His career ERA in the AL Beast is 3.99 I understand pitching there has it's toll but I really think people over rate it too...I believe there are 30-40 better pitchers in MLB than James Shields, and better one's coming, I don't think it's crazy at all to say he's just a good 2Â He's pitched #2 innings to Verlander the past two years is the accurate stat, and it shows that not only is he crazy durable, but he's always keeping his team in games or he'd get the quick hook. No chance Wade Davis is more valuable, as he had his most productive season last year in the bullpen and has a career 4.22 ERA as a starter.It shows that he's due for an injury to me, Wade Davis was big prospect I believe TB gave up on him to quickly, mostly because of the crowded rotation, I think he really has a chance to prove himself given the opportunity.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomarFachix Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Another thing that scares me about Shields, that I had not thought about before... http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g96/philsphan1210/ScreenShot2012-12-10at54534PM.png I'm sure this will somewhat be cancelled out by the fact that he is leaving the AL East and going to a rather awful offensive division, but more evidence that maybe Shields isn't quite an "ace". I still think he will be very good in KC though, but I stand by my idea that KC should have gotten more.Kaufmann is bigger than the Trop, I'm sure he won't have any qualms about pitching his home games there. Playing all of those games at Yankee stadium and Fenway can't help the road ERA very much Career 6.35 and 5.86 respectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Why not? They have a set rotation now with a legit ace, great corners with Moustakas and Hosmer, a legit young SS in Alcides Escobar, set corner OFers in Francoeur and Alex Gordon.. I don't see why this team can't play for, at worst, a wild card spot.Mostakas and Hosmer both very young Hosmer really struggled last year, neither are great yet, both can be obviously...Alcides known for his defense, good piece but, still, Francouer blows, Alex Gordon has stuggled in the majors more than he's had success still have huge holes and 2b and CF, still very young, I compare them to teams such as the Yankees and I just think the don't compare across to board, I guess they have a solid bullpen although I don't much about it..Too young, too many question marks..compare em to the tigers lol, still a couple more years for this team...imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phightins Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Kaufmann is bigger than the Trop, I'm sure he won't have any qualms about pitching his home games there. Playing all of those games at Yankee stadium and Fenway can't help the road ERA very much Career 6.35 and 5.86 respectively. Surprisingly, Kauffman is usually in the top half of offense-friendly stadiums in the league, and the Trop is near the bottom. I'm sure a lot of this is how awful the Royals pitching has been. But yes, great point about Fenway and Yankee Stadium. I guess time will tell with this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phightins Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 The thing that I keep coming back to is this: if David Price was in this trade instead of James Shields, how would the trade be viewed? I'd still view it as awesome for Tampa. Would have been a win-win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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