Owner Real Deal Posted November 9, 2012 Owner Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 @WojYahooNBALakers are dumping Princeton offense, sources tell Y! Sports. "This (firing) was about the offense, more than anything else," source says. http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/bosh-celebrate-2.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted November 9, 2012 Author Owner Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Had to make a separate topic about it, since this has more to do with our offense (and it makes me wonder if Eddie Jordan is history). Head coach position is emptied, but Eddie Jordan is not fired...and the offense is scraped??? Triangle offense, and Phil???? :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfish Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Pick and roll offense! :glasses: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren2ThaG Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 McMillan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 I don't know why people would be excited over the return of the triangle and yet destroy the idea of the Princeton offense. It's the same principles, and both offenses take away many of Nash's strengths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted November 9, 2012 Author Owner Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 I don't know why people would be excited over the return of the triangle and yet destroy the idea of the Princeton offense. It's the same principles, and both offenses take away many of Nash's strengths.Nash will be free to do more in the triangle, though, and I'd argue that the triangle will be easier for us to learn. So the easier it is to learn, the quicker we'll be able to work outside of it whenever we want. But, even Mitch Kupchak said it in the interview...it wasn't exactly the Princeton we were running. It was a heavily-modified version of it...and from what I've seen, we depended on Kobe and Gasol to make all of our plays, and turned the PG position into a shoot-first, shoot-second, shoot-third, and pass-fourth (if you know what I'm saying, lol). Kobe and Gasol broke the triangle so many times, running a two-man game, P&R, and ignoring everyone else, during our championship runs. Nash will most definitely get his opportunities. We just can't run an uptempo offense. Maybe if we trade Gasol for Josh Smith (Dwight's friend), and we have Dwight and Smith running with Nash, and Kobe will just have to push through...but otherwise, we can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 We just can't run an uptempo offense. Maybe if we trade Gasol for Josh Smith (Dwight's friend), and we have Dwight and Smith running with Nash, and Kobe will just have to push through...but otherwise, we can't. I am not saying run an uptempo offense...this Laker team is painfully slow and unathletic, so that'd be suicide. I do think everything should start with Nash, though. Since 01-02 he has led 9 top 2 offenses (6 of them being ranked 1st). Kobe, Dwight and Gasol combined don't have that kind of track record leading offenses. Don't get me wrong, everyone needs their touches and shot attempts in comfort areas, but the offense really needs to be built around Nash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted November 9, 2012 Author Owner Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 I am not saying run an uptempo offense...this Laker team is painfully slow and unathletic, so that'd be suicide. I do think everything should start with Nash, though. Since 01-02 he has led 9 top 2 offenses (6 of them being ranked 1st). Kobe, Dwight and Gasol combined don't have that kind of track record leading offenses. Don't get me wrong, everyone needs their touches and shot attempts in comfort areas, but the offense really needs to be built around Nash.I don't think you can build an offense around Nash, while maximizing Kobe's scoring ability, or even Dwight's. It's a nice track record, but it has never landed Steve Nash into the NBA Finals. Dwight got there using an offense catered to him, by SVG, with less talent than Nash has had...and Kobe, with Gasol and Odom (Bynum out), won a championship with an offense built around him. Sounds like a huge mistake to me, and if we are keeping Gasol, we are giving full facilitating responsibilities to a PG, despite having three others (Kobe, Dwight and Gasol) who are some of the best passers at their positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 I don't think you can build an offense around Nash, while maximizing Kobe's scoring ability, or even Dwight's. It's a nice track record, but it has never landed Steve Nash into the NBA Finals. Dwight got there using an offense catered to him, by SVG, with less talent than Nash has had...and Kobe, with Gasol and Odom (Bynum out), won a championship with an offense built around him. Sounds like a huge mistake to me, and if we are keeping Gasol, we are giving full facilitating responsibilities to a PG, despite having three others (Kobe, Dwight and Gasol) who are some of the best passers at their positions. For the record, offense was NEVER the reason Nash never made it into the Finals, and you know that. It isn't like his offenses took huge plummets in the post-season. The defense of those teams were often terrible, and he never had the type of closers and elite options that he will now. A PnR offense based around Nash and arguably the best PnR big man in the league in Dwight (and another very good one in Gasol) will be very difficult to defend. Kobe will need to learn to play off-ball a bit more, although he should definitely get his fair share of iso's (hopefully in the midrange/post area). I just feel letting a guy who has led a bunch of top offenses, and is more concerned with getting other players looks as opposed to himself, is ideal. A Kobe-centric offense ain't getting this team anywhere, and the Dwight offense was proven flawed on 2 accounts...1) 3pt shooting teams go cold, and that bounces them at some point in the playoffs, and 2) His passing and high turnover rate makes him a questionable #1 option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AboveLegit Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Kobe will need to learn to play off-ball a bit more, although he should definitely get his fair share of iso's (hopefully in the midrange/post area).He's already one of the best off ball players in the league. He played that way a lot in the triangle. Anyway, you know my stance on this subject. Everything should go around Nash, there's just too many pieces here that fit's his style in Phoenix perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted November 9, 2012 Author Owner Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Well, Nash is probably the worst player he has been in years, playing less than 30 minutes a night for us, and he's no longer the MVP Nash he was in 2006. The triangle isn't going to give ball-handling duties to just one player...that's just it. But if you believe an offense around Nash would be good with two superstars and a PF who need the ball in their hands to maximize their potential, that's fine. I'd rather see Nash taking more wide-open shots, seeing that he's highly-efficient. And if an offense is going to be ran through Nash, then D'Antoni will more than likely be the coach...and D'Antoni doesn't coach defense (as you know). LA's defense has been a train wreck, and is one of two player-associated reasons (turnovers being the other) that we've been losing games. Phoenix wasn't THAT bad, defensively, by the way. They were in the middle of the pack when they were contending, 13th one season. They didn't have a big man defensive anchor, but neither do the Heat...and Marion, Bell, and Kurt Thomas could have provided enough defense to propel them into the Finals, with the offense they possessed. Marion and Bell aren't LeBron and Wade back on defense, but I could argue that the duo was pretty close back in their primes. I'm not saying Phoenix had to be the Miami Heat on defense, either, or that they were a top three...but they had enough to get there, especially when Dallas reached the Finals in one of those seasons with a defense that was also out of the top ten in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted November 9, 2012 Author Owner Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Gotta run, and we're just going to hop back and forth on the issue, anyway. You think Nash can run an offense at 39, that it should be built around him, and I'd rather see an offense that allows for our four passers to do something with the ball. Kupchak stated that he wanted an offense that was a bit easier to learn, but still involved all of our players...almost hinting at the triangle. It's not like the triangle can't be ran without a shoot-first PG, it would just need to be stressed that the Lakers would go P&R out of it quite a bit, with Nash/Dwight and Kobe/Gasol, or even Nash/Gasol...and that's fine. At this point, we're both speculating what would be better. Nash, in a halfcourt offense, has failed...once with Shaq, and currently with us. He pushes fast-paced, uptempo offense, as we all know...and if you're suggesting against that (and I know Kobe would, as would Gasol, Artest and Jamison), I think the triangle would fit best. That's just my stance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Well, Nash is probably the worst player he has been in years, playing less than 30 minutes a night for us, and he's no longer the MVP Nash he was in 2006. Nash doesn't need to be a 20/12 guy on this team, and that's not what I'm proposing. Last year he made an awful team into a 9th ranked offense, and he did so averaging 11APG with his usual ridiculous shooting percentages. He doesn't need to do that heavy lifting on this Laker team, but he is still VERY capable of being the centerpiece of an elite offense. He's proven that over and over and over and over again. The triangle isn't going to give ball-handling duties to just one player...that's just it. But if you believe an offense around Nash would be good with two superstars and a PF who need the ball in their hands to maximize their potential, that's fine. I'd rather see Nash taking more wide-open shots, seeing that he's highly-efficient. I believe everything should start with Nash. He should dictate how the offense flows, where people catch the ball, getting it to certain players in sweet spots, and doing what he does best...playing the PnR to perfection and making smart decisions. I am not saying making Gasol and Kobe into spotup shooters or running the same offense that Phoenix had...but he is the guy with the least amount of offensive flaws, and he has proven to be the most capable of all these stars at orchestrating an elite offense. And if an offense is going to be ran through Nash, then D'Antoni will more than likely be the coach...and D'Antoni doesn't coach defense (as you know). LA's defense has been a train wreck, and is one of two player-associated reasons (turnovers being the other) that we've been losing games. Sloan coached Stockton for many years...he knows how to coach elite PG's as well, and the Nash/Dwight combo could be just as scary as the Stockton/Malone combo, but this time he'll have Kobe and Gasol by his side instead of Hornecak and Ostertag. Phoenix wasn't THAT bad, defensively, by the way. They were in the middle of the pack when they were contending, 13th one season. They didn't have a big man defensive anchor, but neither do the Heat...and Marion, Bell, and Kurt Thomas could have provided enough defense to propel them into the Finals, with the offense they possessed. Marion and Bell aren't LeBron and Wade back on defense, but I could argue that the duo was pretty close back in their primes. I'm not saying Phoenix had to be the Miami Heat on defense, either, or that they were a top three...but they had enough to get there, especially when Dallas reached the Finals in one of those seasons with a defense that was also out of the top ten in the league. The year Dallas made the Finals Phoenix was starting Boris [expletive]ing Diaw at C. The next season, Phoenix royally [expletive]ed themselves with the suspensions. IMO if they were at full strengths both those series' in 06 and 07, they would have won it all. But that's neither here 'nor there. Offense wasn't ever the problem for Nash or the Suns. It was defense. Now Nash has arguably more offensive weapons than ever. IMO there is no reason to not let Nash run the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted November 9, 2012 Author Owner Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Sloan coached Stockton for many years...he knows how to coach elite PG's as well, and the Nash/Dwight combo could be just as scary as the Stockton/Malone combo, but this time he'll have Kobe and Gasol by his side instead of Hornecak and Ostertag.Sadly, when Stockton was 39, the Jazz won 44 games. Granted Malone was a year or two younger, but he was still putting up 22 PPG...wasn't shooting as well. Previous season, they won 53 games, Malone playing pretty well. Lakers would be far better than that, though. By the way, I guess I shouldn't have left Sloan off my list in that last post. He's been my #2 choice for a while now. I just don't see why we can't apply a P&R-heavy offense while running the triangle. We didn't run the exact Princeton offense that Adelman decided to drag in for those Sacramento Kings. Just another thing to note, though: Phil Jackson is a better big-man coach, and he's FAR better with egos. Sloan couldn't handle Deron Williams, and was fortunate enough to coach Malone and Stockton the majority of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted November 9, 2012 Author Owner Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Magic has said Phil Jackson's name in that ESPN interview probably 30 times, lol. He seems pretty excited...probably didn't like Brown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted November 9, 2012 Author Owner Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Rambis on Sloan to LA: "Sloan fits the Lakers personnel. However, the point guard takes a lot of damage in Sloan's system with picks, the point guard sets back picks, off picks, all these type of picks, and I don't know if Steve Nash wants to put his body through that, although Stockton did, with Nash and the way he's been this season thus far (with injuries) I don't know if he'd want to." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Regime Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 No to Mike D'Antoni for a variety of reasons. We don't have the right personnel to run his scheme. Team is ridiculously slow and is more adept to scoring in the half court, both of which work against MD. D'Antoni wouldn't even know what to do with three legitimate post up options. His offenses have always been predicated on spacing the floor, penetrating and finding open shooters which once again isn't our strength. And I don't even want to start with what his defenses have done over the years. The fact of the matter is that Dwight is going to have to anchor this defense. Kobe isn't the same perimeter defender as he once was, Nash is a defensive liability, Pau is soft as [expletive], and Metta isn't the same from a couple years back. Whoever takes over the takes the reigns has to emphasize defense. Phil Jackson seems like a longshot. What are the Lakers going to offer him, $15-20 million just to coach for six months? The team is already in a financial hole so I highly doubt they'll shell out that kind of money. Brian Shaw to me is the best candidate for the job, he's familiar with the triangle, and people like Kobe and Shaq have been really high on him for a while. Kobe, Pau, and Metta are comfortable in the triangle, so the transition wont be nearly as brutal as shifting to a completely different offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owner Real Deal Posted November 9, 2012 Author Owner Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Brian Shaw is in Indiana as an assistant, and when they asked him about the job a bit ago, he kind of acted like it was a joke...and it makes sense, when you consider how badly he was snubbed last summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Regime Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 And also why are people so high on Jerry Sloan? I understand how Nash and Pau/Dwight could be effective in the offense, but how exactly would Kobe work into the mix? Sounds like the two and three's have to move around alot off screens/cut to the basket, and that's not something that Kobe has done a whole lot of throughout his career. You can't expect him to thrive especially at his age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNotoriousBANG Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 that princeton offense was a joke kobe and dwight didn't even go to college, what makes you think they wanted to play a princeton offense mike dantoni would be perfect for this team, they'd win a title with him. its like the old suns team on except twice as good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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