Cleveland @ Boston

[Lkr]

What extremely clutch shot has Kobe hit in the playoffs? Other than the one vs Suns, where they lost of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDWru_YjLLg

 

want me to find the others?

edit:

found another:

Edited April 5, 2010 by Lkr

[YugoRocketsFan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDWru_YjLLg

 

want me to find the others?

edit:

found another:

 

OMG EXTREMELY LUCKY!

[Real Deal]

LeBron has what, 3?

Probably three or four. Cleveland has been in a lot of close games with the Pistons and Wizards over the years. James hit two game-winners on the Wizards.

 

In fact, LeBron hit a game-winning shot on Hedo against the Magic. He hit a shot on Ruffin against the Wizards. There was one Wizards game he made a game-winning layup. He had a game-winning layup against the Pistons as well.

 

Kobe and Shaq were demolishing teams in the playoffs, and when they didn't, they had Fisher and Horry. Without Shaq and those excellent shooters (which included Harper, Fox, and a handful of others), Kobe has had four playoff seasons, two of them with absolutely no legit team (no shooters, no defense, no nothing).

 

I don't see the point.

[YugoRocketsFan]

Probably three or four. Cleveland has been in a lot of close games with the Pistons and Wizards over the years. James hit two game-winners on the Wizards.

 

In fact, LeBron hit a game-winning shot on Hedo against the Magic. He hit a shot on Ruffin against the Wizards. There was one Wizards game he made a game-winning layup. He had a game-winning layup against the Pistons as well.

 

Kobe and Shaq were demolishing teams in the playoffs, and when they didn't, they had Fisher and Horry. Without Shaq and those excellent shooters (which included Harper, Fox, and a handful of others), Kobe has had four playoff seasons, two of them with absolutely no legit team (no shooters, no defense, no nothing).

 

I don't see the point.

 

Me neither, but people continually say LeBron isnt clutch and then Kobe is, it annoys me because its ignorant and hypocritical.

[Real Deal]

Me neither, but people continually say LeBron isnt clutch and then Kobe is, it annoys me because its ignorant and hypocritical.

LeBron is a clutch player, overall (scoring, passing, defense). His free throws do need work. I think everyone knows that. It could be a problem down the road (and it has been so far).

 

I'd take Kobe at the free throw line, and I'd take Kobe for the last-second shot of the game.

 

The Cavs are more dangerous in the clutch because they have better shooters (everyone from Mo and Moon, to West and even Jamison now). They spread the floor well, and you can't double LeBron so easily because of those guys, which includes Gibson (who destroyed Detroit in a decisive playoff game against the contending Pistons) and Ilgauskas about 15-20 feet from the rim.

 

So while there are about 3-4 other clutch shooters for the Cavs, there's really only Fisher for the Lakers, so you know where the ball is going, and you know who's likely to take that final shot for LA, while LeBron is willing to pass it off with full confidence that his teammates will knock down the shot, and rightfully so.

[Real Deal]

By the way, LeBron was massively clutch for Cleveland in most of the fourth quarter of this game, but the two misses from the line, and the weird three-point attempt he took to win instead of tie with a few seconds left, sort of hurt the argument a bit.

[YugoRocketsFan]

LeBron is a clutch player, overall (scoring, passing, defense). His free throws do need work. I think everyone knows that. It could be a problem down the road (and it has been so far).

 

I'd take Kobe at the free throw line, and I'd take Kobe for the last-second shot of the game.

 

The Cavs are more dangerous in the clutch because they have better shooters (everyone from Mo and Moon, to West and even Jamison now). They spread the floor well, and you can't double LeBron so easily because of those guys, which includes Gibson (who destroyed Detroit in a decisive playoff game against the contending Pistons) and Ilgauskas about 15-20 feet from the rim.

 

So while there are about 3-4 other clutch shooters for the Cavs, there's really only Fisher for the Lakers, so you know where the ball is going, and you know who's likely to take that final shot for LA, while LeBron is willing to pass it off with full confidence that his teammates will knock down the shot, and rightfully so.

 

Kobe also has many years on LeBron so that part is obvious.

 

Brooks also struggled with free throws in closing seconds too, even as a great free throw shooter, many players just struggle with it.

 

But still Kobe only has that on LeBron because of experience.

[Lkr]

OMG EXTREMELY LUCKY!

There is a difference between all of those shots(excluding maybe the Detroit one) than a mid air turn around from deep downtown

[Real Deal]

Kobe also has many years on LeBron so that part is obvious.

 

Brooks also struggled with free throws in closing seconds too, even as a great free throw shooter, many players just struggle with it.

 

But still Kobe only has that on LeBron because of experience.

This is LeBron's seventh year in the NBA, and he's averaging freakish numbers. I'm pretty sure the experience discussion has been thrown out the window already.

 

Kobe had 14 game-winners in his first seven seasons, and you can go ahead and mark off the first couple of seasons that Bryant wasn't even a second option (under 30 minutes per game, under 12 shots, Shaq and Jones were shooting and touching the ball more).

 

That's 18 game-winners in his first seven seasons as a first OR second option on offense, which is pretty impressive. I believe LeBron has 11 or 12, but don't quote me on that. Impressive as well. Melo probably has one or two more than James.

[YugoRocketsFan]

This is LeBron's seventh year in the NBA, and he's averaging freakish numbers. I'm pretty sure the experience discussion has been thrown out the window already.

 

Kobe had 14 game-winners in his first seven seasons, and you can go ahead and mark off the first couple of seasons that Bryant wasn't even a second option (under 30 minutes per game, under 12 shots, Shaq and Jones were shooting and touching the ball more).

 

That's 18 game-winners in his first seven seasons as a first OR second option on offense, which is pretty impressive. I believe LeBron has 11 or 12, but don't quote me on that. Impressive as well. Melo probably has one or two more than James.

 

Kobe has a LOT more experience though, which is why you choose him over LeBron at free throw or game winner, thats what I meant.

[OldChili]

While LeBron has been a better overall player this season, you aren't considering Kobe's teammates being terrible three-point shooters, Bryant being ran off the ball constantly in the fourth quarter (doubled before he even gets across the three), and he's also had three rebounders in Gasol, Odom and Bynum, more scoring options, and EVERYONE in the triangle offense is required to pass the ball (it's a pass-first offense, five able-bodied passers).

If Kobe's teammates are horrible three point shooters then maybe he should try feeding it to Gasol, Bynum, or Odom down low. Those aren't bad options by any means. Yes, LeBron's assist stats are inflated compared to Kobe's, but that doesn't take away the fact that LeBron is a better and more willing passer in the clutch. And even so, he still manages to score a good 15+ more points on average on a much higher field goal percentage. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how you get your team to win, be it with your scoring or passing ability. The difference is LeBron takes better shots (hence the higher field goal percentage), and when he isn't open he'll pass it to the open teammate. I know you disagree with this, but I'd rather have someone else shoot a wide open shot rather than Kobe jacking up a three with two guys on him. Sure he manages to make a few, but most of the time he won't. Maybe that's why his shooting percentages don't compare to LeBron's.

 

That would be like me giving you Kevin Martin's stats from a few years back, his time in Sacramento, and comparing them to a better player.

 

Kobe is still the better clutch player. LeBron has been the better overall player this season, even though I relate SOME of that to Kobe's injuries throughout the entire season.

No it's not, because we're not talking about Kevin Martin. That's a totally different and irrelevant situation. But if we were, here are his clutch stats from 2007-2008:

 

34.4 points, 3.9 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 3.1 turnovers, 0.4 blocks, 0.8 steals, .500 FG%, .429 3P%, . 80 FT%

 

He's not even in the top 20. We're talking about LeBron and Kobe, the #1 and #2. There are a few players below Martin that I would consider better players, but his numbers are barely better. There's a significant difference in the numbers from LeBron and Kobe. We're talking about 15+ points, 10+ rebounds, 3.3+ assists, 6% higher FG%, etc.

 

To be honest, I don't consider Kobe all that much a better clutch player than LeBron. It's much closer than people think. The only things Kobe does better is taking care of the ball and shooting a higher free throw percentage. You might bring up his game winners, but don't forget that he's also missed the most. But I'm sure that falls on his teammates.

[Real Deal]

Martin was just an example of a player that is asked to carry the load in the clutch, but then again, I guess that goes back to my Kobe example a bit as well...teams knew Martin was the only guy in Sacramento that could produce, so they knew what was going to happen.

 

But since you're looking up clutch stats, tell me where Vince Carter is to Carmelo Anthony. Post them and convince us that Carter is a better clutch player than Melo, without considering the defensive attention Melo gets right when he touches the basketball.

 

Situations can't be ignored. Kobe needs to feed Gasol, Bynum and Odom down low? Odom doesn't play down low, and Bynum and Gasol don't play together much at all in the fourth (Phil plays Odom and Gasol more than the Bynum and Gasol duo in the late stages of the game, and that's been going on for two years now). The last time Odom played in the post was back in 2006-07.

 

Kobe's shooting percentages don't compare because he doesn't drive to the rim every play, and you can't expect him to in the triangle. In fact, Kobe was screaming at Phil the other night, and kicked a chair, because Jackson refused to give him isolation, something Mike Brown encourages with LeBron. Why? Because isolation with Bryant runs Gasol out of the spot, breaks the triangle, and puts him and [insert teammate here] within 12 feet of each other, minimizing passing and disabling shooters like Fisher and Farmar (who don't hit anything to begin with).

 

I'd rather have LeBron shoot a wide-open jumper than Kobe with two in his face. However, not specifying a player is going a bit too far. Odom airballed a wide-open jumper that Kobe passed him, for a game-winner, pre-Gasol. I've seen other players do it as well. Bryant has hit many game-winning jumpers with two in his face, including the one in the playoffs against the Suns (Bell and Diaw) and the game-winner against the Raptors this season, fading towards the sidelines.

 

Put two guys on LeBron, two guys on Bryant, and ask one to hit a three. You take Kobe every single time. Hell, it wasn't too long ago that Bryant hit three consecutive shots in a game (including the game-winner) with both LeBron and Ilgauskas in his face.

[Lone Wolf]

He always takes deep threes as well. He is an average jump shooter, I don't know why he feels the need to force up deep threes

Yeah. He wanted to get the game-winner instead of aiming for the tie. He's trying to be a hero. Way too risky of him.

[Cleveland's Finest]

By the way, LeBron was massively clutch for Cleveland in most of the fourth quarter of this game, but the two misses from the line, and the weird three-point attempt he took to win instead of tie with a few seconds left, sort of hurt the argument a bit.

 

He said he took the 3 because he saw Jamison under the rim and thought he could get the rebound if he missed it.

 

As much as I test LeBron's nerves to shoot the threes, he made it a game and that's all that matters for now. After the game LBJ said he wants the Celtics in the playoffs.

 

One thing about this game that made me sick is seeing KG smack talk LeBron all fourth. Meanwhile, LeBron is the one who's taking it to their defense all fourth, and KG is supposed to be defending the basket. Yet KG is the one talking, not LeBron.

 

As mention, LeBron has two game winners in the playoffs. Kobe has what, 4? Twice as many and he's played more than twice as many playoff games? So drop the clutch crap. And Kobe's never done what LeBron did in Game 6 in Detroit.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Cleveland's Finest

[Real Deal]

He said he took the 3 because he saw Jamison under the rim and thought he could get the rebound if he missed it.

I just don't like that. James took it to the rim most of the quarter, and brought the Cavs back from a 22-point deficit that way. He was on a fast break to the rim. The Celtics would've had to foul him, if anything, but he would've gotten the bucket and possibly even a free throw to follow.

 

One thing about this game that made me sick is seeing KG smack talk LeBron all fourth. Meanwhile, LeBron is the one who's taking it to their defense all fourth, and KG is supposed to be defending the basket. Yet KG is the one talking, not LeBron.

It's KG. LeBron dunked all over him the last time they met in the playoffs, and hopefully, he does it over and over again this time.

 

As mention, LeBron has two game winners in the playoffs. Kobe has what, 4? Twice as many and he's played more than twice as many playoff games? So drop the clutch crap.

James has four (see my earlier post). At least I'm almost 100% sure he does, unless I'm mixing regular season game-winners with playoff ones.

 

And in 60 playoff games for LeBron, 17 of them (almost 30%) have ended very close, three points or less.

 

In 175 playoff games for Kobe, 23 of them (13%) have ended with a three-point or less margin of victory.

 

In almost as many games, they have both hit as many game-winners...and that's not considering the fact that Kobe was coming off the bench for nine of those games, wasn't even a first OR second option for another 13, and was on the same team with Fisher and Horry for so long, two of the clutchiest (is that a word?) shooters in the history of the game.

 

And Kobe's never done what LeBron did in Game 6 in Detroit.

It was Game 5, but anyway...

 

GM5 vs. Pistons: 48 PTS on 18-33 FG (.545), 9 REB, 7 AST, 50 MIN

 

And now Kobe...

 

GM2 vs. Denver, 2008: 49 PTS on 18-27 FG (.667), 4 REB, 10 AST, 42 MIN

 

GM3 vs. Phoenix, 2007: 45 PTS on 15-26 FG (.577), 6 REB, 6 AST, 45 MIN

 

GM6 vs. Phoenix, 2006: 50 PTS on 20-35 FG (.571), 8 REB, 5 AST, 52 MIN

 

GM4 vs. Sacramento, 2001: 48 PTS on 15-29 FG (.517), 16 REB, 3 AST, 48 MIN

 

GM1 vs. San Antonio, 2001: 45 PTS on 19-35 FG (.543), 10 REB, 3 AST, 47 MIN

 

Game 5 is where LeBron emerged as a dangerous force in the playoffs. People talk about it because it was unexpected.

 

People expected Kobe's performances, and they weren't shocking at all.

[Cleveland's Finest]

It was Game 5, but anyway...

 

GM5 vs. Pistons: 48 PTS on 18-33 FG (.545), 9 REB, 7 AST, 50 MIN

 

And now Kobe...

 

GM2 vs. Denver, 2008: 49 PTS on 18-27 FG (.667), 4 REB, 10 AST, 42 MIN

 

GM3 vs. Phoenix, 2007: 45 PTS on 15-26 FG (.577), 6 REB, 6 AST, 45 MIN

 

GM6 vs. Phoenix, 2006: 50 PTS on 20-35 FG (.571), 8 REB, 5 AST, 52 MIN

 

GM4 vs. Sacramento, 2001: 48 PTS on 15-29 FG (.517), 16 REB, 3 AST, 48 MIN

 

GM1 vs. San Antonio, 2001: 45 PTS on 19-35 FG (.543), 10 REB, 3 AST, 47 MIN

 

Game 5 is where LeBron emerged as a dangerous force in the playoffs. People talk about it because it was unexpected.

 

People expected Kobe's performances, and they weren't shocking at all.

 

Kobe didn't score the final 29 points. I'm talking about the game not the numbers.

 

And LeBron has only 2 playoff game winners. A layup in Cleveland vs. Washington the first year we made the playoffs and the Orlando one. There was one in Washington but there was still time left.

 

I'm not concerned with this one game. I do want to face this team though as it is a long time coming.

[Real Deal]

Kobe didn't score the final 29 points. I'm talking about the game not the numbers.

Ah, right. Kobe dropped 19 in four minutes against the Nuggets in the fourth quarter of that 49-point, 10 assist playoff game, but nobody cares about that, either.

 

And LeBron has only 2 playoff game winners. A layup in Cleveland vs. Washington the first year we made the playoffs and the Orlando one. There was one in Washington but there was still time left.

Four.

 

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/12539288 (over Ruffin with 5.7 to go)

 

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap/_/id/270531008/cleveland-cavaliers-vs-detroit-pistons (layup to put the Cavs ahead with 2.2 on the clock)

 

Then the two you mentioned. The two above are game-winning shots/layups, buzzer-beating or not. There was still 0.9 on the clock when he made the layup against the Wizards as well.

[Lkr]

And now Kobe...

 

GM2 vs. Denver, 2008: 49 PTS on 18-27 FG (.667), 4 REB, 10 AST, 42 MIN

 

GM3 vs. Phoenix, 2007: 45 PTS on 15-26 FG (.577), 6 REB, 6 AST, 45 MIN

 

GM6 vs. Phoenix, 2006: 50 PTS on 20-35 FG (.571), 8 REB, 5 AST, 52 MIN

 

GM4 vs. Sacramento, 2001: 48 PTS on 15-29 FG (.517), 16 REB, 3 AST, 48 MIN

 

GM1 vs. San Antonio, 2001: 45 PTS on 19-35 FG (.543), 10 REB, 3 AST, 47 MIN

 

Game 5 is where LeBron emerged as a dangerous force in the playoffs. People talk about it because it was unexpected.

 

People expected Kobe's performances, and they weren't shocking at all.

Got a few more for you, big guy:

Gm1 vs Minnesota, 2003: 39 points on 16-30 shooting(.533), 8 AST, 5 REB, 45 min

Gm4 vs San Antonio, 2004: 42 points on 15-27 shooting(.556), 6 REB, 5 AST, 45 min

GM1 vs Orlando 2009: 40 points on 16-34 shooting(.471), 8 REB, 8AST, 38MIN

 

there are plenty more. To say Kobe isn't clutch besides his game winners is garbage

[Cleveland's Finest]

Got a few more for you, big guy:

Gm1 vs Minnesota, 2003: 39 points on 16-30 shooting(.533), 8 AST, 5 REB, 45 min

Gm4 vs San Antonio, 2004: 42 points on 15-27 shooting(.556), 6 REB, 5 AST, 45 min

GM1 vs Orlando 2009: 40 points on 16-34 shooting(.471), 8 REB, 8AST, 38MIN

 

there are plenty more. To say Kobe isn't clutch besides his game winners is garbage

No one said that.

[Real Deal]

The point is, there's no need to look down on Kobe to make LeBron out to be a better player. I can say LeBron is clutch without saying Kobe isn't. When you give us his Game 5 against the Pistons, and I give you 5-6 other games where Kobe matched that performance, you go on to tell me it was the 29 consecutive points that made it special. Okay? Reggie's eight in nine, McGrady's 13 against the Spurs, Kobe's 19 in four against the Nuggets in the playoffs...Kobe dropped 20+ consecutive points before, without any teammates scoring. He outscored the Mavericks through three, something nobody in the history of the game has done through 36 minutes. He dropped 55 in one half, 81 in a game, 42 in another half of a different game.

 

Bryant also averaged 10+ points in the fourth quarter one season, something that hasn't been done since Wilt, I believe.

 

Four playoff game-winners for Kobe in 23 close playoff games. Four for LeBron in 17 close playoff games.

 

Kobe is the all-time leader in game-winners made, NBA history. I believe he's also hit the most game-winners in a single season since the mid-90's, but it could go back even further (don't remember the statistic).

 

LeBron is clutch. Kobe is more clutch. Eventually, I'm sure that will change as Kobe ages...but let's not kid ourselves here. Missing game-clinching free throws is huge, and so is the decision to take a three over a clear path to the lane. Double both players, and who do you take for that last shot? It's as clear as day. You take Kobe, although if you want the drive and the opponent isn't going to double, it's obviously James.

[OldChili]

Martin was just an example of a player that is asked to carry the load in the clutch, but then again, I guess that goes back to my Kobe example a bit as well...teams knew Martin was the only guy in Sacramento that could produce, so they knew what was going to happen.

 

But since you're looking up clutch stats, tell me where Vince Carter is to Carmelo Anthony. Post them and convince us that Carter is a better clutch player than Melo, without considering the defensive attention Melo gets right when he touches the basketball.

 

They're almost practically the same. Only differences this season are Carter averages 1 more point, 28.6% higher three point percentage (Carmelo is at 0%), .5 more rebounds, .4 more assists, 2.3 less turnovers, and .7 more blocks. Anthony shoots 1% better overall and from the free throw line. I'm sure you consider Carmelo the better clutch player, and so would I, but you can't say Carter isn't clutch. And the stats reflect that, they're almost identical.

 

On the other hand, LeBron averages 15+ points, 10+ rebounds, 3.3+ assists, 6% higher FG%, etc. Those are big time numbers. It's not like LeBron is receiving no defensive attention, either.

 

Situations can't be ignored. Kobe needs to feed Gasol, Bynum and Odom down low? Odom doesn't play down low, and Bynum and Gasol don't play together much at all in the fourth (Phil plays Odom and Gasol more than the Bynum and Gasol duo in the late stages of the game, and that's been going on for two years now). The last time Odom played in the post was back in 2006-07.

Who said anything about Bynum and Gasol playing together? Any time those two are on the floor, be it together or not, I'd rather have them take a shot down in the post than Kobe with a fade-away three with two guys on him. As for Odom, I don't care if he's in the post or not, I'd personally rather have him take the shot if he's wide open.

 

You brought up the fact that Odom airballed a wide open shot to win the game, but Kobe has airballed potential game winners before as well. Remember that Nets game a few years ago? Carter was on Kobe, not even double teamed, with Odom and Cook wide open, and instead he shoots a 28 footer and airballs it. It goes both ways.

 

Kobe's shooting percentages don't compare because he doesn't drive to the rim every play, and you can't expect him to in the triangle. In fact, Kobe was screaming at Phil the other night, and kicked a chair, because Jackson refused to give him isolation, something Mike Brown encourages with LeBron. Why? Because isolation with Bryant runs Gasol out of the spot, breaks the triangle, and puts him and [insert teammate here] within 12 feet of each other, minimizing passing and disabling shooters like Fisher and Farmar (who don't hit anything to begin with).

That doesn't change anything. At the end of the day, LeBron shoots a higher percentage and that's what matters regardless of the plays Phil or Brown run. It's Kobe's fault if he chooses to jack up threes rather than driving to the rim. Is it LeBron's fault he's more efficient at scoring the ball? I would consider Kobe the more offensively talented player, but I wouldn't consider him the more efficient one.

 

I'd rather have LeBron shoot a wide-open jumper than Kobe with two in his face. However, not specifying a player is going a bit too far. Odom airballed a wide-open jumper that Kobe passed him, for a game-winner, pre-Gasol. I've seen other players do it as well. Bryant has hit many game-winning jumpers with two in his face, including the one in the playoffs against the Suns (Bell and Diaw) and the game-winner against the Raptors this season, fading towards the sidelines.

 

Put two guys on LeBron, two guys on Bryant, and ask one to hit a three. You take Kobe every single time. Hell, it wasn't too long ago that Bryant hit three consecutive shots in a game (including the game-winner) with both LeBron and Ilgauskas in his face.

I meant I'd rather have another Lakers player (such as Gasol, Fisher, Odom, etc.) shoot an open shot rather than Kobe with two in his face. To be honest, I wouldn't be so quick to choose Kobe over LeBron in your scenario there. Neither are great three point shooters, and I've seen Kobe miss many more times than he has made.

 

But you're forgetting one thing. Being clutch just isn't about being able to make that game winning shot, but also what happens in the last few minutes of the game when your team is either down or up by 5 or less points. As shown by the stats, LeBron destroys Kobe in almost every category in "clutch" time, and leads his team to the situation where the outcome of the game isn't dependent on the last shot of the game. By the time the game reaches its last few seconds, his team has either taken the lead or expanded on their lead.

 

But making game winners is flashier, and therefore Kobe is the better clutch player.

Edited April 5, 2010 by OldChili

[Real Deal]

Again, you aren't considering the teammates. You're comparing two different teams and players.

 

Go to Kobe's career stats and look at 2003-04, and the points he averaged. Why so low?

 

All you want me to say is that LeBron is the better player right now. He is. I don't deny that. But he's not the better clutch player. I'll take Kobe over LeBron on a three, on a free throw, and on a mid-range jumper, any day of the week. You should, also.

[YugoRocketsFan]

Again, you aren't considering the teammates. You're comparing two different teams and players.

 

Go to Kobe's career stats and look at 2003-04, and the points he averaged. Why so low?

 

All you want me to say is that LeBron is the better player right now. He is. I don't deny that. But he's not the better clutch player. I'll take Kobe over LeBron on a three, on a free throw, and on a mid-range jumper, any day of the week. You should, also.

 

Who do you take going to the hole

[NomarFachix]

Close and late, give me Kobe... Any situation, any point spread, any team, any defender.

[Real Deal]

Who do you take going to the hole

Who do I take slashing to the basket? LeBron.