Pippen vs Hill's legacy, if....

[AboveLegit]

Both players had tremendous amount of potential, both players were question marks in NBA history, and both players are always somehow dragged into questions such as "What if he was healthy" or "What is he was the first option?" My question to you is simple, who would have been the better player if they were healthy and were the first option on their team? How would this effect their legacy? Will they be mentioned more and more with the former greats of the game, or will they still be overshadowed?

[EastCoastNiner]

Grant Hill would be the better #1 option, but Michael Jordan would not have 6 rings if he didn't have Scottie Pippen.

[Real Deal]

Grant Hill, if healthy, would probably be a top ten player in the history of the game by retirement. Back when he came out of Duke, I was almost 100% sure he would be the next to average a triple-double.

[TheNextBestThing]

Grant Hill and it's not even close. Scottie Pippen had a miserable attitude. If he were the first option on a contender (a la Jordan), he would have folded like soggy lasagna.

[AboveLegit]

Grant Hill and it's not even close. Scottie Pippen had a miserable attitude. If he were the first option on a contender (a la Jordan), he would have folded like soggy lasagna.

 

Scottie Pippen got to play one complete season without Jordan before the age of 32:

 

He placed 3rd in MVP

BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant made their only all star appearances

The Bulls won 55 games, just two less than the 93 team which had Jordan

[Real Deal]

Grant Hill and it's not even close. Scottie Pippen had a miserable attitude. If he were the first option on a contender (a la Jordan), he would have folded like soggy lasagna.

Yeah, Pippen was still a pretty good player, but his attitude is another reason why he fell to fifth in the draft. Both the Nets and the Clippers were looking at forwards (and small forwards at that), and they eventually took Hopson and Williams over Pippen (hell, Seattle took him and traded him for Polynice).

 

In fact, if it wasn't for Pippen's play in that pre-draft invitational, he wouldn't have went top five.

 

Jordan set him straight and had a hand in Pippen's attitude adjustment.

[Real Deal]

Scottie Pippen got to play one complete season without Jordan before the age of 32:

 

He placed 3rd in MVP

BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant made their only all star appearances

The Bulls won 55 games, just two less than the 93 team which had Jordan

Yep...post-Jordan. I think that if Pippen had stayed in Seattle with Ellis and McDaniel, versus Jordan and eventually Phil Jackson, I'm not sure if he'd be the same player he turned out to be.

[AboveLegit]

Yep...post-Jordan. I think that if Pippen had stayed in Seattle with Ellis and McDaniel, versus Jordan and eventually Phil Jackson, I'm not sure if he'd be the same player he turned out to be.

Probably not, but either way, we had a chance to see how well he could perform as the number one option.

 

 

It isn't fair that we haven't seen Pippen's true ability as the 1st fiddle..but even when he was on the Blazers..he was never given the role as the 1st fiddle, mostly being the 2nd or 3rd option..even behind Rasheed Wallace.

 

This is my take on this: Grant's early career vs Pippen's prime....

 

- Grant Hill was the superior scorer

- They were equal in the rebounding column

- Pippen was the superior defensive player

- Grant Hill was the superior passer

- Pippen was the better athlete, body shape

 

When I say superior..I don't mean by far. Hill was just slightly a better passer.

 

Another note I found...Hill's presence of just being on the court, he looked like a real leader since his rookie year, and he had determination to get better and work hard...Pippen didn't look like he had those leadership qualities, but that may have been due to Jordan..

[Real Deal]

Well, let's go that route...

 

+ Hill was the better scorer and had twice the offensive game Pippen did

+ Pippen was the better defensive player, possibly best of all-time at the three, but Hill was a good defender

+ Hill was an exceptional passer, and Pippen was good

+ Hill and Pippen were similar in athleticism, and I can probably argue that Hill was more athletic (should've seen him dunk the ball in his first 2-3 years in Detroit)

+ Hill was the better leader

 

Now, if I could have the 1994 Scottie Pippen (22/9/6/49% FG) or the 1997 Grant Hill (21/9/7/50% FG), I'm taking Hill every day of the week because, while Pippen was a seven-year player, Grant Hill had just entered his third...and, surprisingly, put up 20/10/7 the previous year, as a sophomore.

 

Very similar to LeBron James' second season numbers (less points, more boards), and some believe LeBron will close his career as good as, or better than, Jordan.

[AboveLegit]

If we're discussing stats, it really favors Grant Hill more, just because of the fact that he played with Lindsey Hunter as his second fiddle, while Pippen was playing with the ultimate stat grabber, Michael Jordan.

 

Hill was a solid defender, but even he couldn't grab one Defensive team honor, while Pippen was being noticed as the best perimeter defender of that time.

 

You did mention Hill's averages during the year when he finished third in MVP voting (20/10/7), he lead his team to 54 wins, when Scottie was in the MVP race, he won 55 games. Not a huge difference, but it counts.

[Real Deal]

If we're discussing stats, it really favors Grant Hill more, just because of the fact that he played with Lindsey Hunter as his second fiddle, while Pippen was playing with the ultimate stat grabber, Michael Jordan.

 

Hill was a solid defender, but even he couldn't grab one Defensive team honor, while Pippen was being noticed as the best perimeter defender of that time.

 

You did mention Hill's averages during the year when he finished third in MVP voting (20/10/7), he lead his team to 54 wins, when Scottie was in the MVP race, he won 55 games. Not a huge difference, but it counts.

That's understandable, but it wasn't like Hill couldn't score. He averaged 26 PPG with Stackhouse on his team, and that was the year Stack was dropping 24 PPG on 18 shot attempts a night.

[TheNextBestThing]

Scottie Pippen got to play one complete season without Jordan before the age of 32:

 

He placed 3rd in MVP

BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant made their only all star appearances

The Bulls won 55 games, just two less than the 93 team which had Jordan

 

 

1. We've learned what the media voters know about basketball.

2. Good for them.

3. They were a good team. But don't think that the 2 were close, being only "2 wins" apart. Jordan's 1993 Bulls won the championship. The 1994 Bulls were less fortunate. You know what has a lot to do with playoff performance? Attitude. Mental toughness. Things that Pippen didn't exemplify.

[Real Deal]

1. We've learned what the media voters know about basketball.

AMEN TO THAT!

[AboveLegit]

1. We've learned what the media voters know about basketball.

2. Good for them.

3. They were a good team. But don't think that the 2 were close, being only "2 wins" apart. Jordan's 1993 Bulls won the championship. The 1994 Bulls were less fortunate. You know what has a lot to do with playoff performance? Attitude. Mental toughness. Things that Pippen didn't exemplify.

1. The media is far different then from what it is now.

2. If that's the attitude you bring to this discussion, I rest my case.

3. Give Grant Hill Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Pete Myers and the rest of the Bulls supporting cast, you think he wins 55 games? A great third option, a pretty good fourth option, a great sixth man... not much of a second option to speak of unless you're using words like "good" and he won 55 games, 2 less than they won with JORDAN instead of Pete Myers the year before.

[AboveLegit]

AMEN TO THAT!

The media was far different from what it is today, you think they gave out awards because of that players popularity like they do with LeBron James? Scottie earned his MVP votes.

[Real Deal]

The media was far different from what it is today, you think they gave out awards because of that players popularity like they do with LeBron James? Scottie earned his MVP votes.

It was a shot at him (because of Steve Nash).

 

But, with that said, Pippen placed third because the third, fourth and fifth-place vote-getters received a total of 11 first-place votes, while Hakeem Olajuwon (66) and David Robinson (24) took the rest in a blowout.

 

Not to mention four of the five were centers, the other two being Shaq and Ewing.

 

When the spotlight was on how Chicago was going to do in the regular season, and they actually won just 2-3 games less than they did in 1992-93, seven people thought that was insane.

 

Thing is, among the top four...Hakeem, The Admiral and Shaq averaged 27 PPG, 11 RPG and 3 BLK or better...and quite frankly, Pippen's numbers were probably a bit less impressive than Malone and Barkley's stats, but because their teams won 53 and 56 games, respectively, nobody cared...and the defending MVP (Charles) didn't get a single first-place vote, and neither did Malone.

[TheNextBestThing]

It was a shot at him (because of Steve Nash).

 

 

Fat kids and their jokes.

[Real Deal]

Fat kids and their jokes.

For that, I may replace the Nash banner with an Oliver Miller one.

[AboveLegit]

As the second option, Scottie Pippen got MVP votes in 2000, how many second fiddles can say they did that?

 

Either way, Pippen wasn't too far behind Hill on the offensive end. Pip was more well rounded, and a much better defender. Scottie Pippen is the best ever at his position, Hill can't even make a defensive second team over Derrick McKey, Anthony Mason, Charles Oakley, and Theo Ratliff.

 

Also, didn't Hill play like 6 seasons before he got hurt? We got to see how good he was in his prime.

[TheNextBestThing]

For that, I may replace the Nash banner with an Oliver Miller one.

 

 

While you're at it, could you change the Kobe banner?

 

 

http://freeraja.com/Free%20Raja/Images/nba_kobe_bell_195.jpg

[Real Deal]

As the second option, Scottie Pippen got MVP votes in 2000, how many second fiddles can say they did that?

 

Either way, Pippen wasn't too far behind Hill on the offensive end. Pip was more well rounded, and a much better defender. Scottie Pippen is the best ever at his position, Hill can't even make a defensive second team over Derrick McKey, Anthony Mason, Charles Oakley, and Theo Ratliff.

 

Also, didn't Hill play like 6 seasons before he got hurt? We got to see how good he was in his prime.

He averaged his 26/7/5 in that sixth season of play, shooting 49% from the field.

 

LeBron just finished his sixth season, also, averaging 28/8/7 on 49% from the field.

 

LeBron's 2009 season topples any season Pippen ever had, and any season Pippen would've ever had. Hill nearly reproduced it statistically, minus the wins (LeBron and Hill's teammates differ, extremely).

 

I love Scottie. I'll admit that he was the best defender at his position, of all-time. I'll admit he played a vital role in the six rings Chicago won. But I'm not ready to say he would've been even greater without Jordan and as a primary option, and I would be willing to bet that Grant Hill would've been in the NBA ECF's if he had suddenly come back 100% healthy in Orlando. Just look at what he did years after being out and having multiple surgeries...the 20/5/3 on 51% FG season where he had to endure Steve "Franchise-Killer" Francis.

 

The amazing thing about Grant, though, is that the seasons he has shot better than 50% from the field, they have all occurred recently...four of his last five.

 

It's something that Scottie did just twice in a 17-season career.

[AboveLegit]

In 1992, someone gave Scottie Pippen a first-place vote for MVP. Pippen finished ninth in the voting that season, behind Jordan, Drexler, and some of the other usual suspects.

 

Scottie wasn't a superstar scorer, however, he was capable of giving you 22 PPG on 48%... so he was a superstar in terms of FG efficiency from the SF spot...

 

Scottie Pippen was 1st team all NBA in the two seasons he played the majority without MJ... that pretty much should tell you something.

 

And out of the 5 seasons you talked about where he averaged over 50% from the field, his highest average was 19ppg.. The rest? 15ppg, 14ppg, 13ppg, and 12ppg.

 

if Scottie Pippen was playing today, in his physical prime, he'd be one of the legitimately coveted non-centers along with Wade, Bryant, Paul and James, and the #2 player at the SF position behind Lebron. I also believe that his all around game is as good as James.. in that, for whatever Lebron has an advantage on in terms of scoring, Scottie is a better defender. But it's no secret in the NBA. From 18 PPG upward, there is a premium on those points on a nightly basis.

[Built Ford Tough]

Also, didn't Hill play like 6 seasons before he got hurt? We got to see how good he was in his prime.

 

We got to see how good Hill was during his prime, but we did not get to see how good he was during his absolute prime, which he was just enterting before he was decimated by injuries. Grant Hill was on his way to becoming the face of the NBA after Jordan retired and he would have been the one that carried the torch into the new millenium and been the poster boy for the NBA.

 

He was coming off of a 26/6.6/5.2 on near 50% shooting and led his fairly weak Pistons team to the playoffs as Stackhouse was really the only other star on the team. The rest of the team was filled up with role players like Lindsey Hunter and Christian Laettner. Although these two were very solid role players, the team was definitely lacking outside of Grant and Stack.

 

If we're discussing stats, it really favors Grant Hill more, just because of the fact that he played with Lindsey Hunter as his second fiddle.

 

This is completely incorrect.

 

Lets just look at the stats from Hill's teammates during his tenure in Detroit:

 

94-95:

 

Joe Dumars: 18.1 ppg/5.5 apg

Terry Mills: 15.5 ppg/7.8 rpg

Allan Houston: 14.5 ppg/45 FG%/42 3PT%

 

95-96:

 

Allan Houston: 19.7 ppg/45 FG%/42 3PT%

Otis Thorpe: 14.2 ppg/8.2 rpg/53 FG%

Joe Dumars: 11.8 ppg/4 apg/40 3PT%

 

96-97:

 

Joe Dumars: 14.7 ppg/4 apg/42 3PT%

Lindsey Hunter: 14.2 ppg/1.6 spg/35 3PT%

Otis Thorpe: 13.1 ppg/7.9 rpg/53 FG%

Terry Mills: 10.8 ppg/4 rpg/42 3PT%

 

97-98:

 

Bison Dele: 16.2 ppg/8.9 rpg/51 FG%

Jerry Stackhouse: 15.7 ppg/3.3 rpg/3.1 apg

Joe Dumars: 13.1 ppg/3.5 apg/37 3PT%

Lindsey Hunter: 12.1 ppg/1.7 spg/3.5 rpg

 

98-99:

 

Jerry Stackhouse: 14.5 ppg/2.5 rpg/2.8 apg

Lindsey Hunter: 11.9 ppg/3.9 apg/38 3PT%

Joe Dumars: 11.3 ppg/3.5 apg/413PT%

Bison Dele: 10.5 ppg/5.6 rpg/50 FG%

 

99-00:

 

Jerry Stackhouse: 23.6 ppg/3.8 rpg/4.5 apg

Lindsey Hunter: 12.7 ppg/4 apg/42 3PT%

Christian Laettner: 12.2 ppg/6.7 rpg/47 FG%

 

So as you can see, Hunter was never second fiddle for the Pistons and was the third or fourth option and shot in the low 40's, sometime even sub 40, for the Pistons during the time that Grant was there.

 

To be perfectly honest, a big part of the reason why Hunter was able to put up double digit point totals during these years was because of Hill's playmaking ability and all of the attention that he demanded whenever he stepped onto the court. After Hunter stopped playing with Hill, he only averaged above 10 ppg one more time in his entire career with his 10.1 ppg mark in his first, and only, season with the Bucks back in 00-01. After that season, he hovered around 5 ppg for the rest of his career aside from one season with the Raptors in which he averaged 9.7 ppg.

 

Don't get me wrong, Scottie Pippen is an All-Time great and most likely a top 5 small forward to ever play the game, but if Pippen was the first option for the duration of his career, a large part of what makes him so great (6 Championships) will be gone because I don't think that he had what it took to lead a team to the promise land as the main man.

 

He was an elite second fiddle, perhaps the greatest of All-Time, but he did not posses the leadership capability nor did he have "it" (you know what I mean, at least I hope as it would be hard to explain lol) to be an elite first option and franchise player. Grant Hill had "it" and, if he was not decimated by injuries and management put the right players around him, he would have led his team to multiple championships.

 

If Grant was never hit by injuries and had a healthy career, he would be a top 10 player of All-Time and would've gave Larry Bird a run for his money as well (although I don't think he ever would've surpassed Bird, he would be the undisputed second best small forward to ever play the game). I don't think that Pippen would not have been top 10 ever if he was the number one option for his entire career.

 

It truly is a shame that Hill was hit so hard by injuries, because the NBA and us as fans, missed out on seeing a truly special player, and one that does not come along often.

 

EDIT: I just read your latest post and wanted to respond to one thing, hold on a second before (if) you reply to this lol. I'm typing right now.

 

if Scottie Pippen was playing today, in his physical prime, he'd be one of the legitimately coveted non-centers along with Wade, Bryant, Paul and James, and the #2 player at the SF position behind Lebron.

 

The funny thing is that you say if Pippen was in his prime during todays game that he would be the number 2 small forward in the game today (and I don't disagree with that) but you say that LeBron would be the one small forward that is ahead of him. Well, Grant Hill was LeBron James before LeBron James was around.

 

I mean, Grant Hill was doing exactly what LeBron has done during his career and that is put up ridiculous, jaw-dropping numbers. LeBron would score more and dish out a few more assists (although Hill did have a season that he dropped 7.3 apg, which is more than James has ever done) but Hill would grab more rebounds (averaged 9.8 in his sophomore season, 9 in his third season and was hovering around 7-8 the next three years) and play better defense.

 

By saying that Pippen would be second to LeBron James, is basically the same thing as saying that Pippen would've been second to Grant Hill because Grant Hill was LeBron James before LeBron James (if that makes sense lol).

Edited August 24, 2009 by Built Ford Tough

[Mac Dre]

DAMN eca and rd, THIS is what make people come to this forum. you 2 are beasts. ily.

[AboveLegit]

Good post BFT.

 

There's a few parts of your post I disagree with though.

 

First off, Pippen would be able to lead the Bulls to 2-3 Championships, players tend to develop the leadership role among other intangibles as their careers' progress, it's unfair to just base his whole career off of what you saw of him in those very few years without Jordan.

 

Before Pippen hit his stride, Jordan couldn't win with Pippen on the team. Remember, it took until Pippen and Grant's fourth year for them to beat the Pistons. Third, Pippen placed 4th in MVP voting in the only year he had in his 20s without Jordan for the whole year. Fourth, the 94 Bulls won 2 less games than the 93 Bulls after replacing Jordan with Pete Myers in October... Finally, Scottie Pippen took Rasheed Wallace and a bunch of has beens, never was(s), and Jermaine O'neal BEFORE he played to a fourth quarter lead in game 7 of the 2000 WCF v. Shaq and Kobe in their physical primes. If that game is iced, Pip ends up leading a team to a ring at age 34.

 

Put '92 Pippen on the 00 Blazers with Rasheed Wallace, who is far from Michael Jordan, and they walk with that ring. It's not even close. Kobe goes away more than he ever has in his career, more than Tayshaun Prince took him out of his game, and it's over. He was actually 34 that year. Pippen is definitely not a player who needed Michael Jordan to win a ring. Not to mention, without Hugh Hollins call, the Bulls are playing a badly overmatched Pacers team in the ECF in 94 with Pete Myers replacing Jordan.

 

Here are Michael Jordan's records without Scottie Pippen:

 

84-85 Bulls 38-44 First round loss

85-86 Bulls 40-42 First round loss

01-02 Wizards 37-45

02-03 Wizards 37-47

 

Jordan never won more than 40 games without Pippen.

 

Jordan's playoff record without Pippen? 1-9

 

Jordan's playoff record in Pippen's first 3 years? 23-25

Jordan's playoff record in year's 4-6 of Pippen's career? 45-13

 

Pippen's best record without Jordan? 55-27, placed fourth in MVP voting

Lost in seven games to the Knicks, who took the Rockets to game 7 of the NBA Finals.