Iverson to LA Lakers?

[Real Deal]

When AI is in talks with a team not contending for championship, when he's 34, you know he's not about winning, and all that image he had maintained up to that point has been shattered to pieces.

Now I'm willing to bet you wouldn't say the same thing about Jordan, who came back to play for a 19-win Wizards team at the age of 38 years old...right?

[Multi-Billionaire]

Well MJ is a different story, he had won 6 rings and at the time, he came back fully committed to nurture his young players development, more as a team owner than as a player, not knowing he would not get back his position once he's done.

 

MJ has won and tasted winning championship. He's different.

[Warren2ThaG]

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r291/oR8-_/AllenIverson.gif

[Real Deal]

Well MJ is a different story, he had won 6 rings and at the time, he came back fully committed to nurture his young players development, more as a team owner than as a player, not knowing he would not get back his position once he's done.

 

MJ has won and tasted winning championship. He's different.

He could've done that in practices, like he did when he retired for the last time (and like he still does to this day).

 

So, in other words, once you taste winning, you can be done with it? Really? Because in that case, I hope the Lakers decline to give Kobe that extension this year.

 

If you want, I can give you other examples. You brought up Payton. Why did he return to the Boston Celtics after the Hawks waived him? He had already tried to win a ring in Los Angeles...then he went back to a Celtics team that he knew wasn't going to contend for a title.

 

I can find some more players that have done this, actually. It's not a selfish act. It's just an act that defines the pursuit of happiness. Iverson wouldn't be happy playing alongside ball-dominant players such as Kobe, Gasol, Artest and Bynum, so he's not going to go to Los Angeles. Does winning make him happy? Sure, it makes everyone happy, but maybe Iverson has seen guys like Hakeem and Ewing finish their careers with mediocre to poor stats, bad teams or not, and he's seen guys like Jordan do it to be happy, and Payton going back to a decent team before jumping ship with a contender. He also witnessed guys like Marbury jump to Boston, only to be let down. He was around when Dikembe Mutombo could've went to a contender. He heard about Grant Hill staying in Phoenix, despite their ongoing troubles and a declining Steve Nash.

 

Plenty more where that came from.

 

All of those guys are selfish? I doubt it.

 

Iverson wants to turn a team around. Maybe he wants to mentor OJ Mayo. Maybe he wants to be the Iverson of old. Maybe he wants to see if he can boost a team into the playoffs with young talent surrounding him. Maybe, in his head, he believes that he, Mayo, Gay, Conley, Gasol, Randolph and Thabeet can make it big.

 

I think it's more of a hate you have for him than anything else. You aren't observing the bigger picture. It's not always about submitting and becoming a lost face when you're 34 years old, being like many who never win a ring by the time they reach 34-35. He just wants to play basketball.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Why don't you ask MJ yourself? At least that's what he said why he's coming back. Why did he choose the Wizards and not the Clippers... ohhh geee he was a part owner of Wizards.

 

You can't generalize one situation with the rest of them. If you don't want Lakers to extend Kobe, well he can always go to the Nuggets

 

Again MJ came back with the mindset of an owner, with some skills left, he had been long done as a player. You can't compare an owner with a player (Kobe). But it's up to you, because you like to generalize one situation with others, as if I'm responsible for their actions

 

 

Mentor by what? Taking his students Mayo and Gay to nightclubs after games?

 

In pursuit of happiness? Maybe. Or should I say, "definitely" as happiness to Iverson is having enough shots to take. But has he forgot the past when he said "that (Larry O'Brien) trophy right there is all what I play for"... or something like that.

 

That's what AI said before he joined Denver, "we have a chance to do something special in Denver, we want to win a championship". Sure, if we were not good enough, then we were not good enough. We were a streetball team before he came, were a streetball team when he was on the team, I knew this fact, and I accepted it. I never hated AI for this. But going to nightclubs after games and have complete disregard about the next games, is what drives you nuts. That means all he said, he didn't mean it.

 

 

So wait Snake, you mean rich adults can't have their privacy and enjoy themselves in nightclubs now? Sure you can, but you do it with responsibility. By not doing it too often, by maybe not getting yourself too drunk so you're not playing sober in the next game, etc. Taking responsibility, focusing on the big picture.

 

Don't pretend this "side activity" does not affect his teammates and organization. If he was a 12th man, who cares? But he is the main piece of an organization, and if that main piece is [expletive]ed up, the whole organization is affected. If Kobe was a socialite and went to nightclubs often, let the booze and maybe drugs control him, and he commands less and less control and leadership of his team by the day, we'd see less Laker championships in this decade, that I can promise you.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Snake

[Real Deal]

Haha, I actually gave you more examples of players doing such things, but I suppose you need about ten or twenty more?

 

Dismiss Jordan all you want. You still have a few more to explain, and if I wasn't so bored with the argument, you'd have another handful.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Are the Grizzlies offering him $15 mil per? No. It's $3.5 mil per and with the condition he must accept coming off the bench. Screw that. Where does this willingness come from all of a sudden? Had he let it known 2-3 months ago that he can accept coming off the bench, contenders would have swooped in to offer him a job. But why have they shied away? Because of the Detroit bench thing when he said he'd rather retire than accepting a bench role (aka reduced role). Forget what he envisioned what the Grizzlies group can do, had he let it known in July he is willing to come off the bench, he can straight away join the real contenders who really contended last season. Teams like Magic, Spurs, Cavs, Nuggets would surely all be interested. There's no need to join a "potential" team, when he can join the real contenders. For $3.5 mil per and willingness to come off the bench? If I was the Nuggets GM, I would call him myself to ask him to come to Denver, maybe re-negotiate as Birdman has taken a big chunk of MLE. Screw my hate, it's not important, if he's willing to accept coming off the bench then he's undoing the 2008-09 season where he's selfish and immature.

 

Who saw this coming? I don't think AI himself did.

 

 

Your examples of players, Hakeem had won 2 rings and he was on the end of his career, and just playing out his contract to retire. MJ had won 6 rings and he came back solely as an owner trying to develop his players. They had tasted winning and were either satisfied or doing it for other intentions. They can "afford to lose" because with championships in their resume they are forever branded as winners in their legacy. I think Ewing was going to be happy to join contenders on veteran minimum but his knees wouldn't let him play anymore.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Snake

[Real Deal]

I didn't say Ewing and Hakeem. Both of them were traded.

 

Why did Grant Hill re-sign with the Suns?

 

Why did Dikembe Mutombo stay with the Rockets?

 

Why did Gary Payton go back to the Celtics after the Hawks waived him, and after he failed with the Lakers?

 

Why on Earth did Scottie Pippen sign with the Bulls in 2002?

 

Let me know how many more examples you want.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Okay I will try my best to answer these without pretending to know them personally... but through news, etc.

 

Dikembe Mutombo loves winning, but he has other priorities ahead of him, such as humanitarian purposes, helping people in Africa, donations, charities, etc. Unlike AI, who once said winning championship is what he plays for, winning in NBA is just extra, not priority.

 

Scottie Pippen, like MJ, had won 6 rings. Unlike AI, who has 0 rings, he felt he could mentor young players and deservedly so, he has been there. Bulls were the ones making the initiative first move, basically begging him to sign to mentor the young team and maybe help sell the tickets (see the legend returns). When you feel needed, you feel appreciated. And besides Bulls are where his heart is.

 

Payton, I'm not sure.

 

Now Grant Hill? I don't know. He's psycho. Honest answer. I can't see why he resigned with the Suns thinking they could win. But unlike AI, Hill has embraced a reduced role a long time ago. And perhaps he has grown comfortable playing in Phoenix, and maybe superficially, Phoenix has something to do with him staying healthy?

[Multi-Billionaire]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=090511/billups

 

 

^^ One of the best articles I've read... not because of it's about Billups/ Nuggets, but it's just great read.

 

 

In it, you can find:

 

 

- AI partying (that's how you mentor and inspire around you to win games)...

 

Iverson has been popular but counterproductive in Denver. Key members of the organization say that Iverson has partied some nights until 3 in the morning, and that Denver's two most crucial players -- Anthony and J.R. Smith -- have tried to keep up with him. They say Anthony and Smith look at Iverson with reverence, the same way Chauncey's generation looked at Michael Jordan. So when A.I. says, "Let's go out,'" they go out. When A.I. wears a sleeve on his arm, they wear a sleeve. Especially the impressionable Smith, who has never met a shot he didn't like.

 

 

- Why that AI-led 50 win Nugget teams are crap...

 

The Nuggets have managed to win 50 games in 2007-08 living this way, but it's clear they have hit their ceiling. A.I., Anthony and Marcus Camby are all "ball stoppers," meaning they rarely pass. A lot of times, the Denver offense has consisted of Iverson dribbling right, Iverson dribbling left and Iverson taking a fadeaway. The sorry offense has led to sorrier defense, but Karl's pleas for ball movement have fallen on deaf ears.

 

 

- Karl thinking he'd quit/ get fired (before we acquired Billups)...

 

"I just don't think I would've survived," Karl says. "I would've quit or they would've fired me. Personnel people get tired of the coach complaining about the same thing. There was a posse of people in Denver that were tired of George Karl."

 

 

- Chauncey's leadership (I'll take Chauncey's inferior stats + leadership to AI's superior stats + partying and individualism any day)

 

With 2:54 left in the fourth quarter, the Nuggets are clinging to a 99-98 lead, when the ball goes out of bounds to the Nuggets underneath their own basket. Chauncey's fear is realized. The team has no out-of-bounds play. Karl just wants them to improvise, to use their basketball instincts, but Chauncey can't live that way. So he calls time.

 

In the huddle, they're all stumped. Smith tells Anthony: "He just got here, and he's calling timeouts?" But Chauncey waves them close and starts in: "Look, George, I need you to draw me up an out-of-bounds play, man, to get the ball in. Because if we don't and we turn the ball over and lose this game because we didn't have something, that just won't sit well with me."

 

Karl and the team's response is: wow.

 

It has been a stunning transformation. And as the Nuggets enter the building, one by one, for their playoff opener against New Orleans, their two most talented, enigmatic players -- Anthony and Smith -- are dressed to kill. Anthony is wearing a grey pinstripe suit, and Smith is wearing black dress pants. Chauncey has made them pull up their britches.

 

"'Melo and J.R. have dressed up more this year than they ever have," team executive Rex Chapman says. "Not that that wins games for you, but Chauncey's taught them it's OK not to be on cool duty all the time."

 

Smith, in particular, tells people no one has ever influenced him more than Chauncey. On the court, Chauncey wants him talking on defense, and off the court, Chauncey wants him out of clubs. And Smith is all ears. After a game one night, Smith asks Chauncey why he only shot six times, and Chauncey tells him, "I read the game. I don't play for stats. I don't play for none of that no more. I play for the win." Smith's reaction: "Damn. Makes sense."

 

Anthony's basketball IQ is up, too. His only major negative incident comes March 1 in Indiana, when he refuses to come out of a game. That night, Anthony had been struggling with his shot, and when he finally hit a couple in a row, he didn't want to sit. The front office suspends him one game, but in his first game back he sprints off the floor whenever Karl takes him out. Apparently, Chauncey's idea.

 

"This season, my stress level has gone so far down," Anthony says. "It's gone from an eight to a zero. That load's been taken off my shoulders. It's what I've been looking for. You don't have to go out there and try to do it yourself."

 

On the night of the playoff opener, though, Anthony is nervous. In fact, all the Nuggets seem tight. On the opening offensive play, Nene goes the wrong way, and the team bricks its first three shots. Karl calls a timeout, but only one person is talking and wagging a finger: Chauncey.

 

"How can you f--- up the first play of the playoffs, Nene! You can't f--- up the first play! Get your heads in this!"

 

It's clear the Nuggets are deer in headlights. The franchise hasn't won a first-round series in 15 years; Anthony has never been to the second round. So why should Chauncey wait until the third quarter? He starts shooting immediately. He makes eight of nine 3-pointers overall, scores 36 points and has zero turnovers in a Nuggets blowout. Chauncey's sent an early playoff message: Relax, I've got your back.

 

In Game 2, he racks up 31 points and zero turnovers in another blowout. But he doesn't just play a good game, he talks one. During every timeout, he drops pearls of wisdom. Sam Mitchell and Terrell Brandon, each watching at home, swear they can hear Chauncey through the TV set. And they're pretty sure that after a series of hard fouls in Game 3, Chauncey is telling the guys, "Move on." Move on.

[Real Deal]

LMAO, where do I start...

 

1) Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash and Lamar Odom all party hard. The first two have a combined three MVP's, the next has a championship ring. Ironically, Iverson has an MVP, also. Stop whining about Iverson's off-court lifestyle.

 

2) "Sorrier defense," huh? So is that why the Denver Nuggets were ranked 11th and 10th, defensively, in the two seasons Iverson played with them...and ranked 13th in 2005-06, without him? Last season, they were ranked 8th in points per 100, which is what...a couple of teams down from their 10th ranking in 2007-08, with Iverson?

 

Tom Friend needs to do more homework before writing features on one player, disregarding everything the opposition has done.

 

3) I figured George Karl was going to get fired after losing in 2005 and 2006, also, especially going 2-8 against the Spurs and Clippers in the first round (the Spurs loss is understandable). Pre-Iverson.

 

4) So Billups just wanted that out-of-bounds play badly. Good for him. He's the point guard. It either shows that Billups has some sense of leadership, or George Karl is a complete idiot (or both).

 

I bet you wish Billups had found a way to prevent that steal by Ariza in the WCF, also, when his awareness was at level zero during the inbound play.

 

5) Dressing up? Having a big influence in the way you act? So JR Smith's weird-ass taunting face was because of Billups? Dahntay Jones intentionally tripping Bryant was Billups' doing? Chris Andersen's hairstyle didn't have to be cool...but it was...because of Billups?

 

6) In that opening playoff game, the team bricked its first TWO shots, and they never did call a timeout until 5:48 in the first quarter. Good try, Tom Friend.

 

http://www.nba.com/games/20090419/NOHDEN/playbyplay.html

 

7) Awesome first two games Billups had. Props. He forgot to mention his 3-10 shooting in Game 3 and his 3-9 shooting in Game 5.

 

Still don't know why we can't talk about how bad Billups was manhandled by the Lakers' backcourt in the WCF, especially when he shot 2-7 with five turnovers in the deciding Game 6, in Denver.

 

Keep overrating him.

[Poe]

From what I remember, Kobe didn't always have top-notch statistical performances, either.

 

*pulls up Kobe's Game Log*

 

Jazz, Game 3 - 18 points, 5-24 shooting

 

Rockets, Game 3 - 33 points, 11-28 shooting

 

Rockets, Game 4 - 15 points, 7-17 shooting

 

Rockets, Game 7 - 14 points, 4-12 shooting

 

Nuggets, Game 6 - 22 points, 6-13 shooting, 7 TOs (team TOs - 12)

 

Magic, Game 4 - 32 points, 11-31 shooting

 

 

Some games he took more shots than points, some games he had more than half of his team's turnovers, and, if you can believe it, sometimes Kobe has an off-night. And don't jump the gun on me bashing Kobe, I think he's the best player in the world this decade. Now, because Kobe wasn't in his top form every single night, does that mean he's overrated? What about Billups? Just because he doesn't shoot above 50% every night, does that make him overrated? Billups is the opposite of a stat stuffer, he reads the game, and does what he finds is the best approach to win, whether he shoots 20 shots or 0.

 

Billups is not overrated. The coaches agree and the players agree. Maybe he isn't able to lead his team to victories every time, but hey, at least his formula is better than Iversons. You still haven't replied to the fact that every team Billups is on gets the Conference Finals, and the fact that Iverson's awesome leadership can't get past the first round. Just look at the facts. With the exchange of Billups and Iverson, Detroit got worse and Denver got better. Plain and simple.

[Real Deal]

From what I remember, Kobe didn't always have top-notch statistical performances, either.

 

*pulls up Kobe's Game Log*

 

Jazz, Game 3 - 18 points, 5-24 shooting

 

Rockets, Game 3 - 33 points, 11-28 shooting

 

Rockets, Game 4 - 15 points, 7-17 shooting

 

Rockets, Game 7 - 14 points, 4-12 shooting

 

Nuggets, Game 6 - 22 points, 6-13 shooting, 7 TOs (team TOs - 12)

 

Magic, Game 4 - 32 points, 11-31 shooting

 

 

Some games he took more shots than points, some games he had more than half of his team's turnovers, and, if you can believe it, sometimes Kobe has an off-night. And don't jump the gun on me bashing Kobe, I think he's the best player in the world this decade. Now, because Kobe wasn't in his top form every single night, does that mean he's overrated? What about Billups? Just because he doesn't shoot above 50% every night, does that make him overrated? Billups is the opposite of a stat stuffer, he reads the game, and does what he finds is the best approach to win, whether he shoots 20 shots or 0.

 

Billups is not overrated. The coaches agree and the players agree. Maybe he isn't able to lead his team to victories every time, but hey, at least his formula is better than Iversons. You still haven't replied to the fact that every team Billups is on gets the Conference Finals, and the fact that Iverson's awesome leadership can't get past the first round. Just look at the facts. With the exchange of Billups and Iverson, Detroit got worse and Denver got better. Plain and simple.

Billups doesn't get the defensive attention that Bryant does. Don't compare the two, ever.

 

Every team Billups is on gets to the conference finals? Not really. Do you mean just the Pistons and Nuggets? Detroit has had Prince, Hamilton, Ben and Rasheed, and Billups. I'm pretty sure that, in the East, it wasn't that big of a task to get there.

 

But what did Denver, Boston, Toronto and Minnesota do with Billups before he was a Piston? They either lost in the first round, or they didn't even make the playoffs.

 

Iverson's awesome leadership didn't get past the first round? I believe you're wrong. He got out of the first round four times with a depleted Philly team, reaching the Finals once.

 

Denver got better? By four games. Detroit was worse with Iverson? Sure they were, because they lost Flip Saunders and added a first-year coach in Michael Curry, who had no business coaching in the first place.

 

So Denver adds a healthy Nene, Chris Andersen, and has everyone back from their suspensions, adds Billups, and they improve by...four games?

 

I'm glad they reached the WCF. They were almost good enough to do that last year, also, had they not run into the Lakers in the first round of the playoffs.

[Poe]

Comparing Iverson and Billups, I'm talking recent years. Now, if you want to talk about the past, sure. Iverson lost to the Kobe-Shaq Lakers squad. Billups won.

 

Now back to more recent years. You keep bringing up the number of wins. I think it's the amount of success that counts. Billups lead the team to more wins, the second highest seed, and two playoff wins shy of the NBA Finals. Now, are you saying that Iverson didn't have the same opportunity? He was with the same players that won 59 games the year before. And, please, don't blame the coach. You already had plenty to say about George Carl.

 

 

BTW, I wasn't comparing Billups' and Bryant's style and skill level of play, just the fact that neither are stat robots with flawless programming.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Poe

[Multi-Billionaire]

Again, I don't see the point you kept bringing Billups and Denver here, because this is not about them, this is about AI, the player that I don't like. Then you responded by trying to bash my favorite team and your perceived my favorite player in Billups, as if my dislike toward AI had everything to do with what he did in Denver.

 

"Keep overrating him"? What the heck does that have to do with anything? Who is "him"? Billups? When did I overrate him?

 

Why did I bring Billups in this thread? Because of your first response when you compared Billups and AI in the first place, when I said I didn't like AI, instead of focusing on AI and arguing about his negatives (aka staying on topic), you brought up Billups and Denver, saying Billups didn't do much different than AI did in Denver.

 

 

Isn't this familiar? One forum member talks bad about one player, and another forum member responds by, instead of discussing or arguing about the topic, talking bad about that forum member's favorite player/ team. Isn't this what you've been stressing about personal attacks and we have to get away from this? And now you're doing this? Or is it because this is your site, and you're an exception?

 

 

How many times do I have to say this has nothing to do with Denver or Billups? The only thing I hate AI because of what he did to the Nuggets, is his partying, not his on court production. Try find a post where I said "I hate AI because he shot 1% from the floor against the Lakers, I hate AI because he committed way too many TOs against the Lakers, I hate AI because he couldn't lift us vs. Lakers or Spurs. I hate AI because he couldn't get us past first round." Try, because you can't, I never did this and yet you think that's the motive I hate AI and you keep bringing Billups and Denver to counter-attack me. Instead of arguing on topic, you're side-tracking and bashing my favorite team and favorite player. No personal attack on this forum? Great example.

 

Again, I won't respond to your post as long as they're about Denver or Billups, because this has NOTHING to do with what I said about AI. Like I already said, even if AI had never been a Nugget, I would hate him for the same reason. I hate him for being a ballhog, selfish self-centered person, who at 34 should already be mature emotionally, but he is acting like a rookie/ 2nd 3rd year player worried about his number of shots and role.

 

Why is he in Memphis now? Because of his idiocy and ego. I'm sure the decision to agree to come off the bench is because he truly has no other option aka last minute. Time is running out, and he is threatened to not be have a team for a partial/ full-season. What does that say about him and his legacy? A Hall-of-Famer who is one of the all time best talent but when he's a free agent, nobody wants him. I'm sure if he had maintained he was willing to come off the bench much earlier, e.g. in July, he'd be on championship contenders now paying him the same amount of money. Instead, he is in Memphis. Sure they have pretty good talent there, but why choose "potential" when you can join the "proven"?

[Real Deal]

Good way to completely ignore me crushing Tom Friend's article.

 

But anyways...

 

Isn't this familiar? One forum member talks bad about one player, and another forum member responds by, instead of discussing or arguing about the topic, talking bad about that forum member's favorite player/ team. Isn't this what you've been stressing about personal attacks and we have to get away from this? And now you're doing this? Or is it because this is your site, and you're an exception?

Personal attack, huh? A personal attack would be me calling you a complete and utter fool, a [expletive] idiot, and a worthless Denver homer for thinking your team was that much more improved from 2008. That's a personal attack.

 

Me bringing up Billups and Denver? It's to prove to you that you're wrong about Iverson, on all levels. You say the team improved by trading him, but that wasn't the case. You say Billups is the better player, but he's not. Bringing up your Nuggets is something you don't want me to do, because the truth is, you supported Iverson until the day he left, and it was because of Iverson you guys even got into the playoffs in 2008 to begin with, and you know it.

 

You don't like Iverson because of his lifestyle and the way he played for Denver, but you sure didn't whine and cry about that until he was traded.

 

And please, next time, don't tell me I'm getting away with personal attacks just because I'm some exception to my own rules. For one, know what a personal attack is before you take that step, and realize that, just as much as I'm taking shots at your favorite team or player, you're taking shots at someone else's favorite player twice as much, if not more (go back and read your own posts).

 

I'm done with you, though. You'll be saying the same thing about Billups soon, similar to when you stabbed Melo in the back after the 2008 Playoffs, and when you did it again after his final four games against the Lakers in the 2009 WCF.

[Real Deal]

Comparing Iverson and Billups, I'm talking recent years. Now, if you want to talk about the past, sure. Iverson lost to the Kobe-Shaq Lakers squad. Billups won.

Iverson lost to the dynasty Lakers, with Dikembe Mutombo by his side.

 

Billups beat the troubled Lakers, with Hamilton, both Wallaces and Tayshaun Prince at his side.

 

Another bad comparison.

 

----

 

As for comparing Kobe and Billups, I never said you were comparing their games. I said not to compare their shooting percentages, as Kobe gets more defensive attention, 2-3 times as much. It's understandable if Kobe shoots 44-45% from the floor if he's up against teams swarming him with zone defenses.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Good way to completely ignore me crushing Tom Friend's article.

 

Crushing Tom Friend's article? You're not that good.

 

1.) Dirk and Nash are best friends and what, just because of some funny pics of them being drunk and you have this perception they did it often? Show me proof they party hard as much as AI who generated rumors. Odom partied hard and you know what's the effect... you lead Laker fans in bashing his pathetic performance throughout regular season.

 

2.) I don't think Tom Fiend attributed "sorrier defense" to AI alone. He did it to the whole collective unit, not just AI. You're being too defensive unnecessarily.

 

3.) The reason I brought up George Karl, was because you said, if the Nuggets had not done that AI-for-Billups trade, they'd have been fine. They'd still be a WCF team. Are you kidding me? There are reasons why we were 7th and 8th seeded teams with AI and GK thought about quitting or being fired. There are reasons why we were 2nd seed with Billups, and GK is the happiest guy in the L. And according to you, "it's just 4 more wins". Sorry, we're not as good as Lakers who can think 4 more wins is garbage. 4 more wins is a difference from 2nd seed to 7th-8th seed.

 

 

4.) We were a streetball team that had no plays, and played on instinct. That's why I said pre-AI and during AI era, we were a streetball team. Am I now saying, "we are a streetball team because of AI! I hate him!!!"? No. And Billups corrected this and he told the team they need to have plays. Now, I ask you which team would have a better chance of blowing that one point lead, the one that plays on instinct or the one that has plays? Picture it, and realize, it's just one game. And then try to enlarge it to a full season of 82 games + playoffs. You have two completely different teams.

 

And Billups was there perfectly, it's not his fault to plant a 6'3" Carter inbounding the ball against 6'10" Odom. It's not his fault Carter had to loft the ball over the taller Odom, it's not his fault the pass was not a fast chest/ bounce pass but an easily interceptable loft pass. Who's to say his awareness was level 0? He didn't expect the ball to be lofted, he had to get it when it did and he knew Ariza was coming hard at him. All this happening in mere seconds, there's little time to think and react, what's he supposed to do? Elbow Ariza in the face and Lakers get flagrant free throws?

 

 

5.) Billups is here to be a leader not a father. J.R.'s taunting, Dahntay's behavior were not his responsibility. Was Odom trashing Rudy Fernandez to the floor also Kobe's leadership? Funny.

 

 

6.) The point is not the statistics, it's the leadership. He's accurate though Nene committed a TO early in the game. You're analyzing and dissecting completely unnecessary things.

 

7.) Again like you're defending AI, the individualistic and egoistic player, you're measuring how a player does against one team. No offense, this is the "side effect" Kobe Bryant fans they don't realize they have. How one player performs is measured by statistics, even by game-to-game basis. Kobe is an incredible player who rarely has off night (being in his prime now), scoring 30s, 40s, so when another player has off night statistically, they say he's completely ineffective, he's trash, while he's probably doing something else the stats don't show, such as leading and running the team throughout the game, steadying them, communicating constantly on and off the floor with his teammates and coaches, etc. That's why when Fisher struggled, you hope he never plays another game, but when he drained clutch shots, you all can't wait to ride his jocks. You never really value players or understand the value of players contributing besides statistics. That's why you think Marbury was worthless in Boston although he probably a good lockerroom presence to other players with non complaining and his obedience to the system attitude. And probably lowers Doc Rivers' stress.

 

 

 

Personal attack, huh? A personal attack would be me calling you a complete and utter fool, a [expletive] idiot, and a worthless Denver homer for thinking your team was that much more improved from 2008. That's a personal attack.

 

Me bringing up Billups and Denver? It's to prove to you that you're wrong about Iverson, on all levels. You say the team improved by trading him, but that wasn't the case. You say Billups is the better player, but he's not. Bringing up your Nuggets is something you don't want me to do, because the truth is, you supported Iverson until the day he left, and it was because of Iverson you guys even got into the playoffs in 2008 to begin with, and you know it.

 

You don't like Iverson because of his lifestyle and the way he played for Denver, but you sure didn't whine and cry about that until he was traded.

 

And please, next time, don't tell me I'm getting away with personal attacks just because I'm some exception to my own rules. For one, know what a personal attack is before you take that step, and realize that, just as much as I'm taking shots at your favorite team or player, you're taking shots at someone else's favorite player twice as much, if not more (go back and read your own posts).

 

I'm done with you, though. You'll be saying the same thing about Billups soon, similar to when you stabbed Melo in the back after the 2008 Playoffs, and when you did it again after his final four games against the Lakers in the 2009 WCF.

 

 

I can create a poll here on your own site, asking the members if we did or did not improve after we traded AI.

 

Although I never said Billups is better than AI, maybe a better player in terms of fitting in and making the ship go, I can also create that poll asking people's opinion. Find me say "Billups is better than AI" with emphasis on individual game.

 

Wrong, I was supportive of AI when he first came to Denver. Then for the same reasons Philly fans hated him, too much dribbling, too many ill-advised shots, abandoning teammates, abandoning any hope for a system, too many defensive gambles, complete lack of resistance on defense, too individual. Maybe sub-consciously I stopped supporting him. I was definitely not as eager about him as I was when we acquired him, but I did not hate him either. Why did I not hate him? Because I still respected his will to win. And now, you can imagine, the only thing that made me not hate him, respect, is now gone... that's why I hate him. And you make it sound as if I hate him for what he did in Denver.

 

You assumed too much and now you assume I'm going to backstab Billups once he's done and Melo too? For one, I don't ever see myself doing that to Billups. Two, I don't see it as "backstabbing", because to me that's called "criticisms" that are validated by facts. I hate Melo in games when he's lazy. Can you find this trait in LeBron, Kobe, Wade? No, because being lazy means although you can be 100%, you decide you only want to show up 70-80%. Often, of course, on defense. Me, being a team first fan, I'm not going to defend players when they deserve criticisms. Only player fans will defend their favorite players blindly even if they do the most atrocious acts. It's not like a case if Melo is injured and I blame him for not being 100%... because if this is the case, then I'm the one who is unreasonable and a [expletive]ing backstabber. But is being lazy excusable? When he is paid for playing the game? No, it's not. Like it or not, he has to show up 100% or try his best to. He can either do this or keep receiving criticisms from every direction, and I promise you, it's not going to be only me who is doing this. At one point, pre-Billups era, even the Nuggets were rumored to consider trading him. You don't understand, because your favorite player happens to be a hardworking one. It's very frustrating to see games when your best player refuses to exert any effort to move his feet, to move his sloth body, to even raise his hands on defense. But when Melo is 100%, I love him. Call me a love or hate fan, I'm never concerned about Melo. I'm concerned about the Nuggets and who give their 100% for them to win.

 

 

In fact, ^the above paragraph shows that I had more hate towards Melo than AI during AI era. I never hated AI when he was in Denver.

 

Maybe we can still be on topic if I ask you these two questions, Why do you think the other 29 teams have been shy about offering AI a job? Is he washed up?

[Real Deal]

I'm not going to re-answer the same thing you've said twenty times already, which was that entire post, except for this part...

 

Why do you think the other 29 teams have been shy about offering AI a job? Is he washed up?

Shy? The Clippers, Bobcats, Rockets, Grizzlies, Heat, and the Wolves were all involved in Iverson rumors this summer, all that I have read. When Kobe was wanting out of Los Angeles, it was only the Bulls and the Clippers, with a small hint that the Mavericks and Knicks were interested. What's your point?

 

You're putting Allen Iverson in the same category as one would put Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis. I'm going to pounce on this when he proves you wrong.

[Multi-Billionaire]

But most those teams you mentioned during the process were also considering another option, Ramon Sessions. For a Hall of Famer quality player who can still average 20-25 points if healthy, and the amount of money he's commanding (only less than MLE), it sure was a long signing process and he sure received stiff competition from a former NBDL player.

 

And those teams besides the Heat are likely to not be in playoffs. If a capable HOF can be had for cheap, why did playoffs teams and championship contenders not consider signing him? Heck, if I was a Denver GM, I would.

 

Why do you think this is?

 

 

---

 

Cmon now, I'm sure at the time 29 other teams were interested in Kobe but only a handful could offer Lakers reasonable offer for Kobe.

[Real Deal]

But most those teams you mentioned during the process were also considering another option, Ramon Sessions. For a Hall of Famer quality player who can still average 20-25 points if healthy, and the amount of money he's commanding (only less than MLE), it sure was a long signing process and he sure received stiff competition from a former NBDL player.

 

And those teams besides the Heat are likely to not be in playoffs. If a capable HOF can be had for cheap, why did playoffs teams and championship contenders not consider signing him? Heck, if I was a Denver GM, I would.

 

Why do you think this is?

 

 

---

 

Cmon now, I'm sure at the time 29 other teams were interested in Kobe but only a handful could offer Lakers reasonable offer for Kobe.

He wanted more than the MLE until just recently, when everyone else had already made up their minds. Houston picked up Ariza, Charlotte dealt for Chandler and will stick with Felton, Minny took a younger Sessions.

 

Teams are going younger and cheaper so they can still have money for this summer. They aren't dumb. For those who need money, they will just deal a good-sized contract to get that much more under the cap.

 

If they sign Iverson for 2-3 years and $6-7 million a year, they are screwed.

 

Contenders don't have that money to spend, especially after they blow it on Sheed, Artest, McDyess/Jefferson, and Shaq/Moon, while Iverson wants that bigger and longer deal.

 

Instead of assuming Iverson wants to average 30 PPG again, why not assume he wants to play alongside OJ Mayo? Even Kobe said that Mayo had the potential to be a great player and superstar in this league. Mayo is a combo guard, just as Iverson was. Why would he not want to? Memphis is an all-star away from making the playoffs.

 

I'll say this much: if Memphis didn't have Randolph, I'd mark them down as an 8th or 9th seeded team. If they were out East, they'd be in the playoffs, Zach or no Zach.

 

Stick Marbury or Francis on your 2008 Denver Nuggets. That ruins your team, and you miss the playoffs. That truly gets George Karl fired. Put another cancerous player on there, and remove Iverson from the squad. How about Randolph? How would that go?

 

You're labeling Iverson a cancer. You obviously don't know the impact one causes to your team. A fifty-win season marked by Iverson as the leading scorer, and Nene out for 66 games? That's a cancer?

[Multi-Billionaire]

Okay then, he's accepting a $3.5 mil contract as a bench role player with Memphis. So he's settling for less than MLE, and his talks with Memphis has been ongoing for 1-2 weeks?

 

Why couldn't contenders swoop in to offer him a contract? Now that they know he's going to accept one year contract, now that they know he's going to accept coming off the bench. Sure they don't have MLE, but they still have veteran minimum?

 

 

For a player who's been paid $15-20 mil in salary annually since the last decade, not to mention the endorsements, what's the difference between Memphis' $3.5 mil and a veteran mninimum? That's pocket change. What's the difference between Memphis' bench and champion contenders' bench? What's the difference between playing alongside Mayo, and alongside LeBron, Dwight, Kobe, Melo? There's never been news anywhere that Mayo and AI are "tight" or best friends anything like that... he's closer to guys his age, Kobe, or even Melo.

 

 

I don't think you have successfully convinced me not to believe the reason he is signing with Memphis is he wants other than the amount of shots, and "his own system" that he can't otherwise create on championship caliber teams.

[Multi-Billionaire]

You're labeling Iverson a cancer. You obviously don't know the impact one causes to your team. A fifty-win season marked by Iverson as the leading scorer, and Nene out for 66 games? That's a cancer?

 

Hoho sorry I missed this part, what... I am labeling him a cancer but not when he was a Nugget. So you're saying Nene was the reason why we improved so much from the 2007-08 team to 2008-09 team. I would say he was a big reason, but without Billups' leadership, demands of other players, defensive attention, we wouldn't be the same.

 

Like I said you're looking at numbers (Nene's missed games), but you're not looking at the leadership Billups gave us. AI never cared about all the intangibles. To counter you on this, show me the difference between 2004-05 season Kobe (when the Lakers became truly his team, after Shaq left) and the 2008-09 season in terms of intangibles (no stats).

[Real Deal]

Hoho sorry I missed this part, what... I am labeling him a cancer but not when he was a Nugget. So you're saying Nene was the reason why we improved so much from the 2007-08 team to 2008-09 team. I would say he was a big reason, but without Billups' leadership, demands of other players, defensive attention, we wouldn't be the same.

 

Like I said you're looking at numbers (Nene's missed games), but you're not looking at the leadership Billups gave us. AI never cared about all the intangibles. To counter you on this, show me the difference between 2004-05 season Kobe (when the Lakers became truly his team, after Shaq left) and the 2008-09 season in terms of intangibles (no stats).

The difference between those two Lakers seasons was Pau Gasol...just like the difference between 2008 and 2009 (for Denver) was Nene, Chris Andersen, and the absence of Marcus Camby, who sucked defensively.

[Multi-Billionaire]

No, I'm not referring to the team, but Kobe as the individual and his interactions with his teammates.