EastCoastNiner Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 A single player can have a greater impact than any single player of any position in a sport besides probably QB IMO. Overall it's gotta be LeBron. No one is denying that. Howevever, if you are trading for LeBron James, you're going to deplete your entire team, whereas in the MLB and NHL you don't have to completely deplete your team. There's no way that it is LeBron James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trutrojan8 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 For someone like the Sawks to get Pujols would take BuchholzElsburyPedroia at least. Damn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I am not throwing away 50%....that is what Manny does. You are right that might have been an extreme example since Manny literally throws away every aspect of the game besides hitting and Hanley at least gives marginal effort and is becoming a decent fielder...but did you really see right through that example? I thought it was clear as day, my bad for making it too confusing for you.Your comparing apples to oranges. Manny is in LF you can hide a player in LF, ESPECIALLY in Fenway, also no one would put Manny as a top 5 player either. Hanley is a SS. Which as I say again is the most important position on the field. If Hanley where in LF like Ryan Braun he could probably afford to play like he does. However that would take a knock to his value because everyone knows a SS is more valuable than an outfielder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phightins Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Your comparing apples to oranges. Manny is in LF you can hide a player in LF, ESPECIALLY in Fenway, also no one would put Manny as a top 5 player either. Hanley is a SS. Which as I say again is the most important position on the field. If Hanley where in LF like Ryan Braun he could probably afford to play like he does. However that would take a knock to his value because everyone knows a SS is more valuable than an outfielder. FORGET IT!!! I am not comparing a damn thing. Are you really this blind? Was my analogy really that hard to decipher? I am not comparing Manny to Hanley. You just stated that you thought Hanley's lack of hustle and defense made him "overrated", and I attempted to prove this statement wrong by saying that Hanley is in the league primarily for his bat, much like Manny Ramirez. The positions they play mean absolutely nothing in this particular argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 FORGET IT!!! I am not comparing a damn thing. Are you really this blind? Was my analogy really that hard to decipher? I am not comparing Manny to Hanley. You just stated that you thought Hanley's lack of hustle and defense made him "overrated", and I attempted to prove this statement wrong by saying that Hanley is in the league primarily for his bat, much like Manny Ramirez. The positions they play mean absolutely nothing in this particular argument.FINE! That is why Hanley is not as valuable as a David Wright, Wright can win a game with a bat and a glove. Hanley just a bat, and yes by including them together you were comparing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phightins Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) FINE! That is why Hanley is not as valuable as a David Wright, Wright can win a game with a bat and a glove. Hanley just a bat, and yes by including them together you were comparing them. Well yes I did compare them, but not in the way you are making it out. I did not say "which player is more valuable to the team based on the position they play, and which position is more difficult and essential blah blah blah", but I simply said that they are similar because neither is in the league for their glove. There, that simple. This is getting retarded. Edited July 12, 2009 by Phightins09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trutrojan8 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 FINE! That is why Hanley is not as valuable as a David Wright, Wright can win a game with a bat and a glove. Hanley just a bat, and yes by including them together you were comparing them.Hanley is younger, and already has a better bat than Wright. The defense will come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastNiner Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 For someone like the Sawks to get Pujols would take BuchholzElsburyPedroia at least. Damn I love Dustin Pedroia, and I would not want to trade him, but the St. Louis Cardinals would honestly laugh at this trade. I think they would ask for something like: Kevin YoukilisJon LesterDaniel BardLars AndersonVery good prospect I think people underestimate how much it would really cost to get a player like Albert Pujols. Also, when people mention that LeBron James plays a larger percentage of the game than an NHL player does, that is true, but you have to factor in how many points a "Power Play" gets a team, and players like Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, and Alexander Ovechkin FEAST on the "Power Play". Also, it's not like the 3rd line of an opposing team is going to be playing against Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, or Alexander's Ovechkins line where the majority of the scoring comes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastNiner Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Also, can't one make the argument that since Hanley Ramirez plays SS and can play the OF, it increases his value? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phightins Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 A pretty good example of this will be shown with the Roy Halladay trade rumors. He is arguably the top pitcher in the game, and it is very rare to see somebody of that ilk traded. The Phillies are said to be interested, and the rumored package they would need to give up looks something like this... Kyle DrabekDominic BrownJA HappJason DonaldLou MarsonJoe SaveryPossibly 1-2 other mid level prospects Granted, no MLB talent in there (with the exception of Happ), but in terms of prospect "value" that is about as heavy a price as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Also, can't one make the argument that since Hanley Ramirez plays SS and can play the OF, it increases his value? . we don't know if he can do that either but we assume, cute. A pretty good example of this will be shown with the Roy Halladay trade rumors. He is arguably the top pitcher in the game, and it is very rare to see somebody of that ilk traded. The Phillies are said to be interested, and the rumored package they would need to give up looks something like this... Kyle DrabekDominic BrownJA HappJason DonaldLou MarsonJoe SaveryPossibly 1-2 other mid level prospects Granted, no MLB talent in there (with the exception of Happ), but in terms of prospect "value" that is about as heavy a price as possible. I heard TaylorDrabekHappDonald That would also probably be the max I could see the Phillies give up in the deal Meanwhile from the Mets it would require Fernando MartinezWilmer FloresJonathan NieseBrad Holt I wouldn't probably mind that if the Mets were winning the division right now but with us in 4th and this year being in doubt it'd be a dumb deal Well yes I did compare them, but not in the way you are making it out. I did not say "which player is more valuable to the team based on the position they play, and which position is more difficult and essential blah blah blah", but I simply said that they are similar because neither is in the league for their glove. There, that simple. This is getting retarded.I was never trying to get at that I was merely pointing out the fact why Manny gets away with things that Hanley shouldn't. No matter you are right this is getting retarded. Edited July 12, 2009 by Fish7718 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phightins Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Well no Major League player should get away with some of the [expletive] Manny does, regardless of position, but that is another debate for another time lol. Edited July 12, 2009 by Phightins09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcheato Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Albert Pujols and Joe Mauer have the most trade value for any player in any sport, simply because of the Minor League game. You can get more value in the MLB on trades because of all the minor league prospects. And those two guys are the two best players in the league, even though Pujols is the best player, Mauer might be more valuable considering he is a catcher and finally found his power. And he is younger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish7718 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Well no Major League player should get away with some of the [expletive] Manny does, regardless of position, but that is another debate for another time lol.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5rAqqrtg9M Yeah exactly thats why they had to invent a saying for him lol Albert Pujols and Joe Mauer have the most trade value for any player in any sport, simply because of the Minor League game. You can get more value in the MLB on trades because of all the minor league prospects. And those two guys are the two best players in the league, even though Pujols is the best player, Mauer might be more valuable considering he is a catcher and finally found his power. And he is younger. Mauer's biggest point of value is his biggest kill of value. Franchise catchers are very difficult to find, they are so difficult to find because they break down and get injured and have short careers. There is a reason only one catcher has hit over 400 homeruns in a season. I can't see a team putting together a huge package for Mauer knowing he plays catcher. Especially an NL team knowing Mauer only catches about 120 games a year. This is also the reason I can never see a team committing 200 Mil guaranteed to Mauer when he hits the FA market next year. Edited July 12, 2009 by Fish7718 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phightins Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I heard TaylorDrabekHappDonald That would also probably be the max I could see the Phillies give up in the deal Meanwhile from the Mets it would require Fernando MartinezWilmer FloresJonathan NieseBrad Holt I wouldn't probably mind that if the Mets were winning the division right now but with us in 4th and this year being in doubt it'd be a dumb deal I have seen a bunch of potential packages thrown around. I am hoping that they do not go overboard (and the package I posted is IMO WAY overboard). I'd love to get him but not at any cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastNiner Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Albert Pujols and Joe Mauer have the most trade value for any player in any sport, simply because of the Minor League game. You can get more value in the MLB on trades because of all the minor league prospects. And those two guys are the two best players in the league, even though Pujols is the best player, Mauer might be more valuable considering he is a catcher and finally found his power. And he is younger. I think Joe Mauer has the 2nd most value in the MLB to Albert Pujols, but it may be closer than people think. Anyways, the Boston Red Sox don't have to worry about trading to get him.......they'll sign him in the off-season. http://www.otrbasketball.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcheato Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5rAqqrtg9M Yeah exactly thats why they had to invent a saying for him lol Mauer's biggest point of value is his biggest kill of value. Franchise catchers are very difficult to find, they are so difficult to find because they break down and get injured and have short careers. There is a reason only one catcher has hit over 400 homeruns in a season. I can't see a team putting together a huge package for Mauer knowing he plays catcher. Especially an NL team knowing Mauer only catches about 120 games a year. This is also the reason I can never see a team committing 200 Mil guaranteed to Mauer when he hits the FA market next year.It may drive people away but he is the best player in the American League, and the best at a position where many aren't that good. And I guess you just have to believe he's going to stay healthy. I don't think he'll demand a 200 mill contract either, I think and hope he stays with Minnesota. He's from around there, would be a shame to see a player of his caliber leave his home town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastNiner Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 It may drive people away but he is the best player in the American League, and the best at a position where many aren't that good. And I guess you just have to believe he's going to stay healthy. I don't think he'll demand a 200 mill contract either, I think and hope he stays with Minnesota. He's from around there, would be a shame to see a player of his caliber leave his home town. There's no shame in joining the Boston Red Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly3rs18 Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 i think you would have to give the most for pujols, or any young MLB star for that matter, but i think NHL is pretty close. i dont feel like going all the back, but ECN had an example trade for ovechkin, and i cant see the caps even close to agreeing to that. it would take a beyond a huge amount to get a guy like ovechkin/malkin/crosby. maybe not as much as for someone like lincecum/pujols, but really damn close. just look at how much the flyers had to give to get an old pronger. that wouldnt even be a quarter of the cost of ovechkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdog17k Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 (edited) I wonder if the Yankees will pursue Albert Pujols. I actually bet the Red Sox will. Edited July 13, 2009 by bigdog17k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly3rs18 Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 I wonder if the Yankees will pursue Albert Pujols. I actually bet the Red Sox will. they obviously arent going pursue him in a trade because the cards will never trade him, but if he became a free agent then of course those two teams will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdog17k Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 they obviously arent going pursue him in a trade because the cards will never trade him, but if he became a free agent then of course those two teams will Yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) I think you are completely missing the point. Come up with a trade that a team could make for LeBron James. A legit trade, not some BS where 5 teams would be involved and Cleveland would wind up with Dwight Howard, Kevin Garnett, and Kobe Bryant. Make it a legitimate trade (although this is technically not a "legitimate" argument because this would never happen, but it is just for arguments sake). Then by comparison we will come up with a trade the St. Louis Cardinals could hypothetically make with Albert Pujols, or the San Francisco Giants could make with Tim Lincecum, or the Pittsburgh Penguins with Sidney Crosby. We will then compare "value" received by the team trading away the superstar. When big time stars are traded the team getting the big time star always wins the deal in the short term and currently the value for both sides is clearly uneven. Look at the Flyers, they got Chris Pronger and gave up essentially a young player, some future draft picks, and a current player that is OK. It is similar to basketball because that is usually a similar kind of deal traded for an all-star. Shaq was traded from the Lakers for a young player(Caron Butler), future draft picks, and a current player that is pretty good(Odom) with Brian Grant filled in just to make the salary work. When you trade a star in any sport(a big time star) you will not get equal value for him in a trade. And only a retard would trade a big time star when he's only 23. Those Ovechkin proposals to Boston are huge bs trades that are so unrealistic it's pretty unbelievable. If your telling me to not post a bs trade proposal look at that dudes. It isn't that LeBron isn't the most valuable player in pro sports (because honestly I would agree with that), but with the setup of the NBA it is impossible to realistically get a net value worth anything that would even make the Cavs pick up the phone and discuss a trade. Not necessarily the case in MLB/NHL in this era of teams valuing so highly (and in lots of cases overvaluing) their top prospects. It's impossible to get net value for any star in any sport. The Colts and Patriots would never trade Brady for Peyton Manning even though it wouldn't be clear who won the trade. Guys like Roy Halladay, the reason their being shopped around is because their team blows and they want to save money/get young players since they know their not winning now. If the Phillies do the trade for Roy Halladay right now they don't lose anything in the present making it a lopsided trade for right now. However when you get to the good teams their superstars arn't going anywhere. St. Louis trading Pujols? That would never happen and any deal involving him is just as unrealistic as a deal sending LeBron out of Cleveland. Crosby getting traded? Team's could throw their entire farm system all they want, but that would never make Pittsburgh give them up. Even with the farm system and the additional young prospects it's not going to even make Pittsburgh think about trading Crosby or Malkin or the Giants/Cardinals with Pujols/Lincecum. I don't think you understand how much harder it is to get "value" in the NBA than it is in the MLB/NHL. In the NBA, you are only going to be dealing current NBA players and garbage picks. Also, I really don't see what team would trade for LeBron and give up everything they have(your point), or trade a star for a star. It just doesn't work that way. Let me give an example of what the Boston Bruins would have to give up for Alexander Ovechkin, with cap space not taking effect, although I don't think this would even be enough, and I doubt either team would do the trade. Phil KesselDavid KrejciBlake WheelerTukka RaskDennis Wideman For: Alexander Ovechkin That is probably too much to give up, but that is a type of package that it would take in order to get Alexander Ovechkin. The farm system and AHL is the main reason for MLB and NHL players having more trade value than NBA players. Boston would never do that trade so I don't see what your point is. I could post a similar deal having the Hornets or someone trade half their team for LeBron James , but it doesn't matter since none of those deals have any shot at going down. Edited July 15, 2009 by Diesel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly3rs18 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 he was just giving an example of how much they would have to give away. obviously it wasnt a legit trade offer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 he was just giving an example of how much they would have to give away. obviously it wasnt a legit trade offer An argument their using is that trading LeBron is unrealistic in the NBA when that trade right over there is just as unrealistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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