Who was more important?

[Real Deal]

Iverson (DEN) in 2008: 26.4 PPG (45.8% FG), 7.1 APG, 2.0 SPG, 3.0 TO/G, 3.0 RPG

Billups (DEN) in 2009: 17.9 PPG (42.0% FG), 6.4 APG, 1.2 SPG, 2.2 TO/G, 3.0 RPG

 

Statistically, you are wrong. Iverson contributed more to Denver. He shot better, scored more, threw more assists (despite missing Nene), had more steals, just as many rebounds as a larger Billups.

 

So here's what you're saying: Allen Iverson's leadership is worse than Billups' leadership. And that's what caused the four extra wins?

 

I think it has more to do with adding Nene's 14.6/7.8 on 60% FG, and Chris Andersen's 2.5 blocks and six rebounds in just 21 minutes of play.

 

I know you're wrong, because Billups didn't produce enough to help this team as much as you're advertising.

 

In fact...

 

Carmelo Anthony, 2008: 25.7 PPG, 49% FG, 7.4 RPG, 3.4 APG

Carmelo Anthony, 2009: 22.8 PPG, 44% FG, 6.8 RPG, 3.4 APG

 

Melo had a worse season with Billups.

 

Kenyon Martin shot a better percentage from the field with Iverson (54% versus 49%).

 

JR Smith shot a better percentage from the field with Iverson (46% to 45%).

 

Linas Kleiza shot a better percentage from the field with Iverson (47% to 45%).

 

Now are you ready to admit that Nene's offensive production, and Chris Andersen's defensive production, helped this team more than anything else? Or are you going to stay in denial because of your hate for Allen Iverson?

 

Giving you more...

 

Again, Denver didn't improve that much, defensively, and there are in fact stats that show it.

 

Defensive rank

 

2008: 10th

2009: 8th

 

Points allowed per 100 possessions

 

2008: 106.3

2009: 106.8 (really?)

 

3PT% allowed

 

2008: 36.3%

2009: 36.6%

 

FG% allowed

 

2008: 45.7%

2009: 44.0%

 

Now here's where the bigs factor in again...

 

Rebounds allowed

 

2008: 3722

2009: 3382

 

Massive improvement in keeping teams off the glass. That has nothing to do with Billups and his Iverson-matching three boards a game, but the fact that you got Nene back, along with Chris Andersen.

 

I'm not sure what else you want to discuss. It's all right there. Nene and Chris Andersen were the biggest difference-makers.

 

But finally, ask yourself this question: if the Melo and Iverson-led Nuggets had Nene and Chris Andersen in 2008, would they have won four more games (54 wins), or possibly better? I'm leaning towards a big yes.

 

Additionally, if the Nuggets had avoided the Lakers in the first round last season, would they have advanced to the second round, or even the WCF? Possibly so.

 

It wasn't the Iverson/Billups trade that made the biggest difference. It was getting Nene back, the presence of Chris Andersen, and losing an overrated defensive player in Marcus Camby.

 

That's all she wrote.

 

Vote and post your reasoning supporting, or disputing, the above post.

[Mac Dre]

wow. amazing post but i' m not sure what you mean "thats all she wrote". anyways great post and possibly changing my mind about who was more important. i definitely am biased because of what my team did to them, for example, swept with iverson and 6 games with billups, but anyways i am also biased because i hate iverson. but hm. now i'm thinking about this.

[Diesel]

You can't be basing this on stats alone. It's all about intangibles. Billups quarterbacked the team offensively and defensively always making sure the guys were in the right position.

 

Certainly you saw the change in attitude these Denver Nuggets played with compared to the Iverson Nuggets. They care more with Billups and they all worked harder.

 

It's the same thing in Philly. The Sixers were terrible before they got Andre Miller for Iverson. Iverson's numbers certainly own Andre Miller's but it's all about the intangibles you bring. Andre Miller brought a new attitude to that team and played a team game getting everyone involved. The team play(because let's face it Iverson is a black hole on offense) improves immensley without Iverson. And please don't show me some lame APG stat, because if that's how you judge point guards setting up their teammates then you are indeed wrong.

[Real Deal]

You can't be basing this on stats alone. It's all about intangibles. Billups quarterbacked the team offensively and defensively always making sure the guys were in the right position.

 

Certainly you saw the change in attitude these Denver Nuggets played with compared to the Iverson Nuggets. They care more with Billups and they all worked harder.

 

It's the same thing in Philly. The Sixers were terrible before they got Andre Miller for Iverson. Iverson's numbers certainly own Andre Miller's but it's all about the intangibles you bring. Andre Miller brought a new attitude to that team and played a team game getting everyone involved. The team play(because let's face it Iverson is a black hole on offense) improves immensley without Iverson. And please don't show me some lame APG stat, because if that's how you judge point guards setting up their teammates then you are indeed wrong.

Ah, so that's why the Sixers were a 41-win or less team since Iverson left. Thanks for that explanation.

 

So if he was quarterbacking the team, explain why everyone was doing worse with him as QB.

[PapaDoink]

Ah, so that's why the Sixers were a 41-win or less team since Iverson left. Thanks for that explanation.

 

So if he was quarterbacking the team, explain why everyone was doing worse with him as QB.

Wasn't the teams record better with Billups?

[Real Deal]

Wasn't the teams record better with Billups?

By four wins, with Nene and Andersen included into the lineup (missing most all of 2008).

 

But most of the important players' stats were down with Billups in the lineup. Check the first post.

 

If quarterbacks are supposed to make their teammates better...why did Billups make them worse?

[Diesel]

Wasn't the teams record better with Billups?

 

Ding Ding Ding Ding

 

Real Deal is just relying on the stats which don't tell the entire story.

 

Denver's Offensive Rating increased with Billups(even though everyone had worse numbers gee what a coincidence) and their Defensive Rating increased too. Billups is not a liability on defense like Iverson and ever since he broke out in Detroit the guy has been a winner every year.

 

I love Iverson, but the excuses people give are so [expletive]ing funny.

- "Oh well in Denver Nene and Chris Anderson weren't playing"

 

When he was in Philly and his scoring partners never worked out it was because they were always old or washed up. Then he got Carmelo who is arguably the best pure scorer in the league right now. That didn't work as the team duo won a total of 1 playoff game together and 0 series. Now that it didn't work out in Denver the excuse is now Nene and Birdman? But what about Detroit? Billups brought that same team to the ECF just the year before while Iverson marked the end of the Pistons dominance in the East. Rip is an all-star, Prince is a great two-way player, Sheed lost a step, but he's still Sheed who is better than the majority of bigmen in this league.

 

People love making excuses for Iverson and it's enough. Every team improves upon getting rid of him and Detroit will bounce back as well(though don't expect them to make any ECF runs).

 

Philly with Miller did better than they did with Iverson in the last two years. The team played harder than anyone and even though they didn't have much talent they never gave up an easy win and no lead was safe with this team if you weren't careful. Please don't argue that Iverson in his final two years in Philly did a better job than Andre Miller.

[Force]

By four wins, with Nene and Andersen included into the lineup (missing most all of 2008).

 

But most of the important players' stats were down with Billups in the lineup. Check the first post.

 

If quarterbacks are supposed to make their teammates better...why did Billups make them worse?

Billups didnt make them worse though..Denver's tempo slowed down, with the its new defensive mentality which Chauncey brought. This lead to less opportunties for those other guys like JR, Melo...etc. Not to mention, like you said, with Nene, and Anderson back in the mix and getting theirs,(esp. Nene in the scoring department) some players' ppg had to take a hit or Denver would be averaging 130 ppg, which is crazy.

 

As for the question, I would take Billups..they got to the WCF with him. You can say that if the Lakers faced them in the first round this year, they would have been squashed all you want Brandon, but fact is..they didnt. That 4 game improvement was crucial and helped them land a higher seed which made their path to the WCF easier...thats the point of getting a higher seed.

 

Plus, you can't say that if the Nuggets didnt face the Lakers in the first round of last years playoffs, they would have been able beat the Jazz, Spurs, Mavs..etc to advance to the WCF with certainty. Nobody can.

 

And just to clear it up..Nene and Anderson were a big part to Denver's success last year, it wasnt just the acquisition of Billups. But if I were to choose who I want on this Nuggets team with everybody healthy and ready to go..I'd go Billups.

[Real Deal]

Philly with Miller did better than they did with Iverson in the last two years. The team played harder than anyone and even though they didn't have much talent they never gave up an easy win and no lead was safe with this team if you weren't careful. Please don't argue that Iverson in his final two years in Philly did a better job than Andre Miller.

Please.

 

After losing Brown, who coached Iverson better than anyone to date, the Sixers had four coaches in three seasons.

 

But you are forgetting about 2005, when the Sixers won 43 games, which is better than the 41 they won this year, or the 40 they won the year before, all without Iverson (can't even get above .500).

 

Philly has sucked since Iverson and Brown. There's no way around it. Funny enough, that team didn't need Iggy, Miller, Young, and Dalembert to get their 48 wins in 2003, just Van Horn and Snow.

[Real Deal]

So the ONLY thing anyone is basing this on is four wins and Billups' leadership on the floor?

 

Nobody considers Iverson "making his teammates better" statistically, how he put up better numbers and shooting percentages, how he did better against the Lakers (when Billups choked), and how Iverson didn't need Nene or Birdman?

 

Well, okay...pretty funny to me.

 

I'll bump this in April. That's why the poll is public.

[Diesel]

Please.

 

After losing Brown, who coached Iverson better than anyone to date, the Sixers had four coaches in three seasons.

 

But you are forgetting about 2005, when the Sixers won 43 games, which is better than the 41 they won this year, or the 40 they won the year before, all without Iverson (can't even get above .500).

 

Philly has sucked since Iverson and Brown. There's no way around it. Funny enough, that team didn't need Iggy, Miller, Young, and Dalembert to get their 48 wins in 2003, just Van Horn and Snow.

 

Sorry this isn't 2003 anymore and Iverson is no longer able to carry a team like that.

 

2005 was the last great year of Iverson and he made All NBA first team that year. He did good....individually. But is it also a coincidence Iguodala was nothing more than a 8 PPG scorer until Iverson left and he became a star in such a short time? Iverson has never been able to co-exist with another all-star offensive player and have success. The only time in his career he had success was in the prime of his career with a team full of defenders and rebounders.

[Real Deal]

Sorry this isn't 2003 anymore and Iverson is no longer able to carry a team like that.

 

2005 was the last great year of Iverson and he made All NBA first team that year. He did good....individually. But is it also a coincidence Iguodala was nothing more than a 8 PPG scorer until Iverson left and he became a star in such a short time? Iverson has never been able to co-exist with another all-star offensive player and have success. The only time in his career he had success was in the prime of his career with a team full of defenders and rebounders.

So are you telling me a 50-win Nuggets team in 2008 (with Iverson leading the way in scoring and shooting 45-46% from the field) was a worse team than the 48-win Sixers from 2003?

[Diesel]

So are you telling me a 50-win Nuggets team in 2008 (with Iverson leading the way in scoring and shooting 45-46% from the field) was a worse team than the 48-win Sixers from 2003?

 

No.....

 

There's a big difference between Carmelo Anthony, Marcus Camby, JR Smith and Keith Van Horn, Eric Snow, Aaron McKie.

 

That team was more talented and better, but what did they accomplish? An 8th seed in a Western Conference full of terrible teams that were free wins. The 50 wins are inflated.

[Real Deal]

No.....

 

There's a big difference between Carmelo Anthony, Marcus Camby, JR Smith and Keith Van Horn, Eric Snow, Aaron McKie.

 

That team was more talented and better, but what did they accomplish? An 8th seed in a Western Conference full of terrible teams that were free wins. The 50 wins are inflated.

So, correcting your assumption earlier, he did in fact co-exist with other talented players just two seasons ago.

 

The West has terrible teams? More than the East, right?

[OldChili]

Billups didnt make them worse though..Denver's tempo slowed down, with the its new defensive mentality which Chauncey brought. This lead to less opportunties for those other guys like JR, Melo...etc. Not to mention, like you said, with Nene, and Anderson back in the mix and getting theirs,(esp. Nene in the scoring department) some players' ppg had to take a hit or Denver would be averaging 130 ppg, which is crazy.

 

As for the question, I would take Billups..they got to the WCF with him. You can say that if the Lakers faced them in the first round this year, they would have been squashed all you want Brandon, but fact is..they didnt. That 4 game improvement was crucial and helped them land a higher seed which made their path to the WCF easier...thats the point of getting a higher seed.

 

Plus, you can't say that if the Nuggets didnt face the Lakers in the first round of last years playoffs, they would have been able beat the Jazz, Spurs, Mavs..etc to advance to the WCF with certainty. Nobody can.

 

And just to clear it up..Nene and Anderson were a big part to Denver's success last year, it wasnt just the acquisition of Billups. But if I were to choose who I want on this Nuggets team with everybody healthy and ready to go..I'd go Billups.

Exactly my thoughts.

[Real Deal]

Everyone is avoiding it.

 

Would the 2008 Nuggets team have a better chance of winning four more games if they had Nene and Birdman? Simple yes or no.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Billups didnt make them worse though..Denver's tempo slowed down, with the its new defensive mentality which Chauncey brought. This lead to less opportunties for those other guys like JR, Melo...etc. Not to mention, like you said, with Nene, and Anderson back in the mix and getting theirs,(esp. Nene in the scoring department) some players' ppg had to take a hit or Denver would be averaging 130 ppg, which is crazy.

 

As for the question, I would take Billups..they got to the WCF with him. You can say that if the Lakers faced them in the first round this year, they would have been squashed all you want Brandon, but fact is..they didnt. That 4 game improvement was crucial and helped them land a higher seed which made their path to the WCF easier...thats the point of getting a higher seed.

 

Plus, you can't say that if the Nuggets didnt face the Lakers in the first round of last years playoffs, they would have been able beat the Jazz, Spurs, Mavs..etc to advance to the WCF with certainty. Nobody can.

 

And just to clear it up..Nene and Anderson were a big part to Denver's success last year, it wasnt just the acquisition of Billups. But if I were to choose who I want on this Nuggets team with everybody healthy and ready to go..I'd go Billups.

 

 

Sexy post. +1000000000000000

 

 

Real you can sticky this and check back in April.

 

 

My thought right now? AI was just another player who donned a Nuggets jersey. He came and he left. He didn't improve this team just as much as he didn't put it to the ground.

 

Chauncey came but he didn't want to be just another player who comes and leaves/ retires. He wants to make initiation, he wants to take leadership. He proves this not with his mouth but with his actions.

- Called timeout at the end of a close game vs Mavs in his first ever home Nugget game, while his teammates were thinking "who does he think he is, he just got here and he's calling timeouts?", Billups was never worried, he's only worried about the outcome of the game. He wants to win. When the team wins, everybody gets to share it.

- Although he's the newest member of the team, in his mind he is a veteran who can teach his young teammates to play in a system, always directing them where and what to do, especially on the defensive end. He always talks on defense, and urges his teammates to do the same, this makes the team communicate all the time and unites it.

- While AI says to J.R., "let's go to clubs", Chauncey says, "stay out of them". J.R. is no dummy. To him, the fun life of clubbing, drugs, and high time are nothing compared to the life and death experience he had to go through 2 years ago when he had car accident and killed his best friend. Having gone through that, he or anyone would be able to see the world much clearly and know what is good, and what is not good for himself. When he's all ears when Chauncey says that, you know Chauncey is what's good and his teammates know he's what's good instead of the opposite.

 

 

 

You think 4 win improvement is nothing deserving to be mentioned, but you should ask the Utah Jazz what it's like to be only 6 wins worse, having to be the 8th seed and face the 1st seed? In fact, one less win, and we'd be the 5th seed facing a great defensive Houston team, which would have homecourt advantage. To win that series, it would take 7 games at least. Struggling in the first round already wouldn't be what you're fighting for in the regular season. Like Force said seeding is important.

 

 

 

The power of people, united as one always beats the power of one individual, no matter how great it is.

 

You and AI talk statistics and individual triumphs, we and Chauncey talk intangibles and public victory.

[Real Deal]

You and AI talk statistics and individual triumphs, we and Chauncey talk intangibles and public victory.

Iverson with Denver, Billups with Denver, you guys still fell to us. Public victory? Well, good for you.

 

Iverson has been to the NBA Finals more than the entire Denver franchise. You sound like Billups just made you guys the best team in the Western Conference.

 

Since I'm bumping this in April or May, how about making a third prediction about the Nuggets. Are they getting to the Finals this season? WCF? Go ahead.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Everyone is avoiding it.

 

Would the 2008 Nuggets team have a better chance of winning four more games if they had Nene and Birdman? Simple yes or no.

 

There is no absolute answer. You never know if Nene and Birdman playing would have any positive, negative effect on that AI, Melo, KMart, J.R. team. Or it may not have any effect at all. Nene might have taken shots from AI, Melo, or J.R. Birdman might have eaten KMart and Camby's minutes. These players would have statistically become less effective.

 

Basketball is not additions or subtractions, just because you add talent, you expect the team to add wins too?

 

You're neglecting the chain effects that come with it too. It's not that simple.

[Real Deal]

There is no absolute answer. You never know if Nene and Birdman playing would have any positive, negative effect on that AI, Melo, KMart, J.R. team. Or it may not have any effect at all. Nene might have taken shots from AI, Melo, or J.R. Birdman might have eaten KMart and Camby's minutes. These players would have statistically become less effective.

 

Basketball is not additions or subtractions, just because you add talent, you expect the team to add wins too?

 

You're neglecting the chain effects that come with it too. It's not that simple.

Right. So how can you say that Iverson wouldn't have done better with the current roster, then? It's just not that simple, is it?

 

Didn't you say that the Lakers may not have swept you guys if you guys had Nene? I remember you saying that a few times in those 2008 playoff topics, because we went a page or two debating about Nene's "all-star play" you kept telling us about. How did you know? It's really not that simple.

[Revis Island]

Billups, not all that close.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Iverson with Denver, Billups with Denver, you guys still fell to us. Public victory? Well, good for you.

 

Iverson has been to the NBA Finals more than the entire Denver franchise. You sound like Billups just made you guys the best team in the Western Conference.

 

Since I'm bumping this in April or May, how about making a third prediction about the Nuggets. Are they getting to the Finals this season? WCF? Go ahead.

 

So this is what it feels like to have someone rub it in your face.

 

Like it or not, losing in the first round and losing in WCF feel a lot different. Like I said, I was a fan of Kobe and got to enjoy the team's championship triumph from 2000-2002. Also the bumpy road before when Utah and Spurs repeatedly swept the Lakers. It felt absolute joy when you're on the brink of losing to Portland in 2000 WCF to come back and win that game and NBA championship. I then got to taste how it felt to support the team who regularly lost in the first round.

 

I'm telling you losing in the first round, second round, WCF are all different, no matter how you'd like to tell me losing is all the same.

 

 

I'm not going to be pressured to make predictions, and won't make one early, unless Ty Lawson proves to be another Allen Iverson (the good side). ^_^

[Real Deal]

Fine, I'll make the prediction, because I'm pretty confident Billups isn't as good as advertised.

 

Second-round loss against the Spurs. Parker shuts Billups down, like he did back in December.

 

Billups: 12 PTS, 5/13 FG (38.5%), 4 AST

 

And like he did in March 2008...

 

Billups: 6 PTS, 3/12 FG (25%), 8 AST

 

And like he did January 2008...

 

Billups: 11 PTS, 3/10 FG (30%), 6 AST

 

And like he has his entire career against Billups...

 

Billups: 12.1 PPG, 36.7% FG, 4.9 APG

 

Your move.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Right. So how can you say that Iverson wouldn't have done better with the current roster, then? It's just not that simple, is it?

 

Didn't you say that the Lakers may not have swept you guys if you guys had Nene? I remember you saying that a few times in those 2008 playoff topics, because we went a page or two debating about Nene's "all-star play" you kept telling us about. How did you know? It's really not that simple.

 

Prove I said it, you can't you're just blabbering like a confused old man.

 

About the Grizzlies, it just doesn't make sense basketball wise. AI would take 15 shots as a reserve, meaning when he's on the floor, he's going to be at his absolute selfish self. Trust me, the first 5-10 games he's going to play nice and distribute the ball. Once he feels he's "done his part" he's going to start launching. When inevitably they make him a starter, he's going to take 20 shots. And if the team is concerned about the development of Mayo, they'd tell AI to let Mayo take 20 shots too. But they do not take into account the development of Gay... and they totally forget Zach ? And perhaps most importantly, their role players. How the heck are Mike Conley, Marc Gasol ever going to do their roles without being involved in the offense?

 

Noone would deter AI from taking his shots and put great numbers. But he won't have public victory. That team won't get anywhere record wise. This is as far as my prediction goes.

[Real Deal]

Prove I said it, you can't you're just blabbering like a confused old man.

Actually...haha, I can. I think I may have the old database from 2008, around June 29th.

 

If I find it, what will you say then? I'm 110% sure you said it, because it was your biggest excuse for the loss, other than Carmelo Anthony suddenly playing bad and laughing about it.