Who was more important?

[Multi-Billionaire]

^Haha you have to pardon this former Laker fan who forgot those 6 games... But I was right about the 8 game win streak to end the season.

 

http://www.lakersweb.net/yearbyyear/lalakers_2000_2001.htm

 

 

So in total he missed 14 games, not 8 games.

[Real Deal]

^Haha you have to pardon this former Laker fan who forgot those 6 games... But I was right about the 8 game win streak to end the season.

 

http://www.lakersweb.net/yearbyyear/lalakers_2000_2001.htm

 

 

So in total he missed 14 games, not 8 games.

...and the streak you're talking about was due to Shaq averaging 35.8 PPG, and it was a four-game win streak until Bryant came back.

 

The only ball movement on that Lakers team was Kobe to Shaq, Shaq to Kobe, and other players to Kobe or Shaq. The rare kick-outs happened, but it wasn't enough to define team play more than it did duo play, especially when Kobe and Shaq both averaged 28+ PPG that year (28.7 and 28.5 PPG, to be exact) and the second leading scorer, Rick Fox, threw up 9.6 PPG (Fisher only played in 20 games that year).

 

I don't know what team game you're talking about that suddenly changed Bryant, but he never did change. The first time Kobe started becoming noticeably passive was in 2008, and he's still selfish (which is a good thing).

[Multi-Billionaire]

You're talking as if you defend selfishness in basketball.

 

Unless you're a superstar blessed with natural talent, you shouldn't be selfish. Depending on how the people, you see it as "being selfish", I see it as "fulfilling/ doing their roles". Kobe is doing his role as the initiator or the triangle and scorer. He is still in his prime to be scoring many points and it is still within his capability.

 

What AI is doing is outside his capability and he wants to do more than his increasingly limiting role. Sure he can still score 20-25 pts, but he's not nearly as explosive as his former self who was capable of 40-45 pts. The negatives, as his playing time increases, begin to outweight the positives considerably. That's why player who is past their prime naturally see their roles reduced, because there are some things they no longer are capable of doing. That's why to want more of what he's asked in his role, is "selfish", he wants to do more than what he (factor in age and ability) is capable of.

[Real Deal]

So Jordan wasn't selfish for "letting Hamilton average 20" but Kobe was selfish for the first two seasons of the dynasty, even though Shaq averaged nearly 30? I see the hypocrisy here.

 

It's all about Iverson signing with Memphis, that's it. You wanted him back in Denver for $3.5 million and a bench role...you even stated it. Otherwise, it's an Iverson bashing fest for you.

 

As I said in the other topic, the debate is over. If Iverson wanted to mentor Mayo, it wouldn't be possible, since he's Allen Iverson. But Jordan? That's cool. He can mentor Courtney Alexander all he wants. But NOBODY is Iverson. It's your argument, and it's a waste.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Again, like I mentioned in the other thread, I am not the one who labeled Kobe was selfish in 2000-2001 season. It was everywhere, in media, in one of them books, I think it's called "Mad Game: The Education of Kobe Bryant".

 

I'm not mad AI did not sign with Denver.

 

 

This is the reason why I hate him: he maintains he's all about winning early in his career, until we saw for ourselves in Detroit when he complained about his role, that that proclamation was a lie. It's a 15 years long lie, which is made to hide his insecurities that came from criticisms to his direction for dominating (aka ballhogging) and shooting the ball so much (when people start saying you're selfish, just say you would do whatever it takes to win, they are not going to blame you as much).

 

It is further validated as a lie when he signed with Memphis over contenders. This is a first real time he can freely choose to be with any team and he chose Memphis. The decision to join "potential contenders" instead of "real contenders" is not consistent with what he had been saying about himself, that he's all about winning.

 

How can you not see this? This is clear as day. If he was truly about winning, he wouldn't have been in Memphis. Instead he's there for what you said you think his reason is: to nurture OJ Mayo. That is touching, but I'm not buying it. Again, I don't think he's all that close with Mayo.

[Real Deal]

How many times does it have to be said? Iverson wasn't able to sign with a contender because all contenders are already set, have no money, and have stars (mostly all-stars) at their point guard positions.

 

And Iverson went to Memphis because they only need a scorer to be a pretty good team. Maybe they need Wade, or Kobe, but Iverson doesn't think he's a piece of trash, like you do.

 

The more you dig into this, the more I will anticipate those Denver/Memphis meetings, and the more I can't stand anyone hating on him. Good going.

 

Might as well let the Sixers fans come in and take their pot shots at him, and any Pistons fans we have, also.

[Multi-Billionaire]

I don't care if you can't stand me hating on him. I don't hate him to piss off you or AI fans. I just hate him.

 

All contenders are set? For a player of his caliber, they can't make a room? Cmon man, it doesn't make sense. Lakers can tell Elonu to go overseas and further develop his game. Cavs can waive Jawad Williams or request a roster space for injured Leon Powe. Both Magic and Nuggets have roster space. Celtics can waive Shelden Williams for all they care.

 

To my understanding, teams never run out of veteran minimum offers.

 

To have AI come off your bench on a veteran minimum contract, these teams would move heaven and sky to do it.

 

 

 

But of course, this wouldn't be possible without AI's willingness, and we know what his choice is.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Snake

[Real Deal]

So, a "player of his caliber" (even though he's past his prime, and very selfish, according to you) would take $1.2 million a year to play less than 30 minutes a game, be unhappy, and have a big chance of losing to the Lakers in 2010?

 

The Lakers aren't signing Iverson, ever. He's not a spot-up shooting point, which is all we go after.

 

Iverson will compete for a starting role on any team, and against Rondo and Jameer, he would win. Probably not against Parker (Spurs), but the contenders aren't going to put their young all-star caliber players on the bench and risk losing them in free agency.

 

Rondo is perfect for Boston. He doesn't shoot the ball much, defers almost too much, plays defense.

 

Jameer is perfect for Orlando. He shoots threes all the time.

 

Iverson slashes to the rim and scores, or finds his teammates in corners and on elbows. Memphis is perfect for him if you remove Zach Randolph. Charlotte would've been nice as well, but they are having their own problems with Raymond Felton. Houston? Possibly, but that team can win anywhere between 15-40 games, who knows how they will do. And Miami? Well, if Iverson was looking to finish his career off with this final team, it's a good thing he didn't pick the Heat, because in a year, they'll be missing Wade, possibly Riley.

 

Excellent signing by Memphis. Excellent choice by Iverson.

[Multi-Billionaire]

I never said he was supposed to go to contenders and seize the starting PG/ SG role. Strictly as bench player. ^_^ Can you imagine to have a player his caliber coming off your bench? He'd be a one man second unit by himself. AI in 35 minutes is more bad than good, but AI in 25 minutes off the bench should be more good, because the bad is too insignificant in less playing time.

 

No team in their right mind would bench Rondo or Jameer for him. This is why that bench incident in Detroit scared off these teams like Boston and Orlando.

 

 

In the first week of their pursuit of AI, it was said Memphis told AI he must come off the bench. When AI was seriously considering signing with them despite this notion, that must have surprised those contenders like Boston and Orlando, because since that bench incident, never had he said he'd be willing to come off the bench. And all of a sudden he changed his mind?

 

 

You're only saying Bobcats (would have been) and Grizzlies are a nice fit because you see it from the perspective of his role staying as it is. I am seeing it from the perspective of his role being reduced to a role player in order to fit in on contenders.

 

Obviously, AI sees his role staying as it is, and he is not going to accept a reduced role because his role is so much more important than being on contenders.

[Real Deal]

So Iverson is going to play 25 minutes a game in Boston, while Rondo and Ray Allen play 35+ minutes?

 

Nelson and Carter playing 35+ minutes a game...and Iverson gets 25 in that rotation?

 

I hope you're a math major. Both guard slots are filled. No bench player will play 25 minutes behind those two.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Why isn't it possible? For each guard who plays 35 minutes, there remains 13 minutes left at that position. 13 x 2 = 26 minutes > 25 minutes.

[Real Deal]

Why isn't it possible? For each guard who plays 35 minutes, there remains 13 minutes left at that position. 13 x 2 = 26 minutes > 25 minutes.

LMAO, I hope you're kidding. That would require a lineup of:

 

C - Perkins

PF - Garnett

SF - Pierce

SG - Iverson

PG - Iverson

 

Not sure that's possible.

 

Or, what you're telling me is that Boston will play Rondo and Allen for only nine minutes together? That's it? That's definitely stupid.

 

Iverson would have to spend 13 minutes on the floor with each guard, or else it doesn't work. And that doesn't work for a Rajon/Allen duo of just nine minutes.

[Multi-Billionaire]

When Allen goes to the bench for rest, that doesn't necessarily mean Rondo goes with him everytime. Rondo is a horse, being young and all, when Allen goes to bench, AI can replace him, then when Rondo needs rest, he can go to bench, AI switches to PG while Allen comes back in.

[Real Deal]

When Allen goes to the bench for rest, that doesn't necessarily mean Rondo goes with him everytime. Rondo is a horse, being young and all, when Allen goes to bench, AI can replace him, then when Rondo needs rest, he can go to bench, AI switches to PG while Allen comes back in.

Exactly. That means that if Iverson gets 26 total minutes, Rondo and Allen get just nine minutes together on the court, which is stupid.

[Multi-Billionaire]

It can be adjusted...

 

R. Allen = 32 mpg (I don't think you play him 33-35 mpg, he's getting old and the team needs to save him for playoffs).

R. Rondo = 35-37 mpg

A. Iverson = 25-28 mpg

 

 

Generally, the playing time management can be broken down like this

 

 

First quarter

12:00 - 6:30 = R. Allen (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

6:30 - 5:30 = R. Allen (SG) and A. Iverson (PG)

5:30 - 2:30 = A. Iverson (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

2:30 - 0:30 = R. Allen (SG) and A. Iverson (PG)

0:30 - 0:00 = R. Allen (SG) and miscellaneous* (PG)

 

Summary:

- R. Allen gets 9:00 minutes

- R. Rondo gets 8:30 minutes

- A. Iverson gets 6:00 minutes

- *miscellaneous is other guards such as Eddie House, Tony Allen, etc gets 0:30 minutes.

- R. Allen and R. Rondo playing together: 5:30 minutes

 

 

 

Second quarter

12:00 - 8:00 = R. Allen (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

8:00 - 6:00 = R. Allen (SG) and A. Iverson (PG)

6:00 - 4:30 = A. Iverson (SG) and miscellaneous (PG)

4:30 - 3:00 = A. Iverson (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

3:00 - 0:30 = R. Allen (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

0:30 - 0:00 = miscellaneous (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

 

Summary:

- R. Allen gets 8:30 minutes (total: 17:30 minutes)

- R. Rondo gets 8:30 minutes (total: 17:00 minutes)

- A. Iverson gets 5:00 minutes (total: 11:00 minutes)

- miscellaneous gets 2:00 minutes (total: 2:30 minutes)

- R. Allen and R. Rondo playing together: 6:30 minutes (total: 12:00)

 

 

 

Third quarter

12:00 - 9:00 = R. Allen (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

9:00 - 5:30 = A. Iverson (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

5:30 - 4:00 = miscellaneous (SG) and A. Iverson (PG)

4:00 - 2:30 = R. Allen (SG) and A. Iverson (PG)

2:30 - 1:00 = R. Allen (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

1:00 - 0:00 = R. Allen (SG) and A. Iverson (PG)

 

Summary:

- R. Allen gets 7:00 minutes (total: 24:30 minutes)

- R. Rondo gets 8:00 minutes (total: 25:00 minutes)

- A. Iverson gets 7:30 minutes (total: 18:30 minutes)

- miscellaneous gets 1:30 minutes (total: 4:00 minutes)

- R. Allen and R. Rondo playing together: 4:30 minutes (total: 16:30)

 

 

 

Fourth quarter

12:00 - 9:00 = A. Iverson (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

9:00 - 8:00 = miscellaneous (SG) and A. Iverson (PG)

8:00 - 7:30 = R. Allen (SG) and miscellaneous (PG)

7:30 - 6:30 = R. Allen (SG) and A. Iverson (PG)

6:30 - 5:00 = R. Allen (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

5:00 - 3:30 = A. Iverson (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

3:30 - 0:00 = R. Allen (SG) and R. Rondo (PG)

 

Summary:

- R. Allen gets 6:30 minutes (total: 31:00 minutes)

- R. Rondo gets 9:30 minutes (total: 34:30 minutes)

- A. Iverson gets 6:30 minutes (total: 25:00 minutes)

- miscellaneous gets 1:30 minutes (total: 5:30 minutes)

- R. Allen and R. Rondo playing together: 4:30 minutes (total: 21:00)

 

 

---

 

They give AI 25 mpg, Allen still gets his 31 mpg, Rondo still gets 34:30 mpg to lead as expected. And, R. Allen and Rondo play together for a total of 21 mpg.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Snake

[Real Deal]

...seriously? So you're telling me that Rivers is stupid enough to play Iverson like that? Switching his position nine times in a game?

 

And where do you get off thinking Ray Allen is old? He scored 51 or so against the Bulls in the playoffs just this past season. He's arguably the most important player for Boston right now.

 

Rivers will not split 5:30 for the other guards. Eddie House comes off the bench and plays 18 minutes a game by himself.

 

What a great way to completely destroy a backcourt, not to mention you act as if the Celtics have all of those timeouts to sub in and out at least 6-7 times per quarter, at the exact time.

 

Not going to work. Especially this funny part:

 

8:00 - 7:30 = R. Allen (SG) and miscellaneous (PG)

7:30 - 6:30 = R. Allen (SG) and A. Iverson (PG)

Here Eddie, you go in for one play, then I'M BRINGING YOUR ASS RIGHT BACK OUT OF THE GAME, SON! 30 SECONDS!

[Sun Tzu]

I agree with RD, if AI constantly switches between SG and PG it might cause some havoc also a three main rotation between two positions isn't such a good idea especially when you have House on the bench who is still a good player.

 

Here Eddie, you go in for one play, then I'M BRINGING YOUR [expletive] RIGHT BACK OUT OF THE GAME, SON! 30 SECONDS!

 

That's kind of what I do in 2K9

[Multi-Billionaire]

That's the general idea, but you can play around with it. I understand you can't sub without being deadball or timeout.

 

It just does not make sense not to jump at the chance if AI made himself available off the bench for veteran minimum, unless they really think it would not improve them.

 

But I disagree with you about Ray Allen. The very fact he scored 51 pts in playoffs is proof Doc Rivers is a master at managing his playing time during the regular season. He saved his players' legs for the best time, like he did to KG. Obviously Allen is getting old, you're not going to grind him to the ground by playoffs.

[Real Deal]

So that's why Ray Allen played 36.4 minutes per game in the regular season?

[Multi-Billionaire]

Well when you have AI as your sixth man, you really need to adjust. Some sacrifices are going to be made... I'm sure Allen would welcome it, the less playing time means more rest. He played much last season because Tony Allen was not dependable and Eddie House was the only one, and he can't really run an offense.

[Real Deal]

I'm asking if Rivers saved his legs during the regular season, why did he play almost 37 minutes per game?

 

It's not like he wasn't working hard in those 79 games he played. He had six 30-point games, 21 games where he played 40+ minutes, and 16 games where he shot 17+ times (which is quite a bit on a team with other consistent offensive weapons).

 

Rivers didn't hold back with Ray Allen. And it doesn't make sense to do it now, either.

 

You're just trying to make sense of something to support your argument, but it's not going to work out for you. Swapping Iverson from the point to the two-guard position multiple times a game is a terrible, terrible coaching strategy. You don't do that in any offense.

 

Not to mention one HUGE problem: you have no shooter in the backcourt once you stick Iverson and Rondo in the same lineup, and that's what wins Boston their games, because it's always Ray Allen or Eddie House for a reason: it opens up things for Pierce and Garnett, which in turn gives Rajon Rondo room to drive to the rim.

 

Two slashers? No.

 

Boston can't afford it, no matter how good Iverson is, because:

 

a) they can't give him the amount of time he should have on the court, which is 30+ minutes

b) they can't spend a long period of time with a backcourt lacking a long-range shooter

c) they don't have $3.5 million to give to Iverson

d) they can't bench Ray Allen

e) they can't bench Rajon Rondo

f) they are contenders not exactly looking for another piece to get back to the Finals

 

No reason to sign him. They'd have no reason to sign anyone outside of guys like Kobe, Wade and LeBron, at this point.

[Multi-Billionaire]

Look, you're right, maybe Boston is not great fit after all. But you're going back to the reason why they did not have $3.5 mil.

 

In all my instances when AI signs with contenders, they use veteran minimum. If you think $2.5 mil is significant to AI that he's willing to spend/ waste 1 year out of a few remaining just to chase that, when other things should be more important to him, you're wrong.

 

I accept all other reasoning you gave me, except the money reason.

[Real Deal]

What is the $2.5 million about? Vet's minimum is $1.3 million.

[Multi-Billionaire]

^The "rough" difference between a vet minimum and his current contract, which with incentives could balloon from $3.1 mil to $4 mil.

[Diesel]

This is why Iverson isn't wanted by the contenders. They have to completely kill all team play they have just to accomadate for his style of play(which isn't winning basketball).

 

So Mo Williams is a better player than Iverson too? If you agree with that Real Deal you mind as well admit to Snake winning this. Iverson is not a winner at the point guard position unless you completely build the team around him and at this point you cannot do that and expect to win a championship.