Biggest All-star Snubb

[MainEv3nt]

monta ellis avg. 26 pts, 4.30 rbs, 5.6asts, BUT he's doing with majority of his team hurt he is basically there only option AND his team has a real bad record, no way should monte be an all-star.

[Real Deal]

David Lee. If defense is that big of a factor, Nash shouldn't be in there at all, starting or bench...and then someone would need to explain why the Suns are even a .500 team right now, and why Nash has two MVP awards.

 

And there's no chance Billups is a better point guard than Paul or Williams, or Nash for that matter. Not today. Billups is putting up under 20 points and six assists on just 42% shooting, compared to the big numbers Carmelo has been throwing down. Denver's success is coming from their offense. They are 2nd in offense, 13th in defense (league rankings). Just two years ago, with Iverson, they were ranked 10th, defensively.

 

Someone having an inconsistent year on offense and showing he's not playing much defense (just watch the games)...he doesn't get in based on what he did in 2004, or his leadership that, actually, he only showed last season.

 

Stick CP3, Deron or Nash on this Nuggets team, and they are challenging the Lakers for top seed in the West right now, and are a threat to win it all come June.

[Poe]

Billups: 19.2 ppg, 5.9 apg, 3.0 rpg, 1.2 spg, 32.7 mpg (Team Record: 31 - 14)

 

Iverson: 14.2 ppg, 4.3 apg, 2.7 rpg, 0.6 spg, 31.2 mpg (Team Record: 15 - 30)

[MainEv3nt]

Billups: 19.2 ppg, 5.9 apg, 3.0 rpg, 1.2 spg, 32.7 mpg (Team Record: 31 - 14)

 

Iverson: 14.2 ppg, 4.3 apg, 2.7 rpg, 0.6 spg, 31.2 mpg (Team Record: 15 - 30)

 

yes but everyone and they mama know AI shouldnt be playing.

[JWaLL]

Billups: 19.2 ppg, 5.9 apg, 3.0 rpg, 1.2 spg, 32.7 mpg (Team Record: 31 - 14)

 

Iverson: 14.2 ppg, 4.3 apg, 2.7 rpg, 0.6 spg, 31.2 mpg (Team Record: 15 - 30)

Nash/Paul/D-Wil >>> Billups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Iverson

 

All right now by the way, not all time. I know bravenewworld gets distracted by past accomplishments when it comes to figuring out who the best players are right now, so I felt I had to specify.

[Real Deal]

Billups: 19.2 ppg, 5.9 apg, 3.0 rpg, 1.2 spg, 32.7 mpg (Team Record: 31 - 14)

 

Iverson: 14.2 ppg, 4.3 apg, 2.7 rpg, 0.6 spg, 31.2 mpg (Team Record: 15 - 30)

...which is why Rose or Rondo should be starting in the East, or a duo of Wade and Johnson.

[Sky]

Billups may be more valuable in a playoff setting but he's not as talented as Paul or Williams. I'd rather have Chauncey on my team if I'm a contender this year but Paul and Williams are more deserving all-star choices. Billups' value is leadership and clutch play, that's playoffs not all-star games. Chauncey's value emerges when it matters most, that is when it will be recognized, appreciated, and if they succeed, rewarded. It won't be recognized in all-star voting, just the way it is.

 

The voting needs to be taken away from the fans. Iverson in and TMac nearly getting in should put an end to this farce. However Stern wants Chinese fans too badly to ever consider it.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Sky

[ChosenOne]

Monte Ellis and David Lee.

[Erick Blasco]

That is a bit drastic. I know Lee isn't a world class defender but he's certainly not horrendous. The fact that he plays on a team where no else can defend definitely makes him look worse. The fact Horford plays with Josh Smith definitely makes him look better. All that being said this game has never been about defense. David Lee is averging 19.4 and 11.4 if that is not an all star, what is? I don't know if he's the biggest snub obviously the guard who got snubbed by Allen Iverson must be pretty pissed but it is pathetic Lee did not make.

 

That's not true. Lee IS the worst defender on the Knicks. Chandler and Duhon are average defenders. Jeffries is a very good defender. Gaillnari is a poor defender, but he can jump high enough to block a few shots. Off the bench, Robinson and Harrington are mistake prone, but aren't worse than Lee.

 

There's a defensive statistic called dMULT, it measures how well all the players of a position perform when matched up against one player. In Lee's case, a dMULT of 1.00 would mean that players play exactly as well against Lee as they normally do. Lee's dMULT is 1.105. That's horrendous.

 

He's not a great positional defender. He's not a shot blocker at all, and he often doesn't contest at the rim.

 

Horford's been solid even when Smith was blowing his top and bricking threes the last couple of years.

 

The All-Star game should be about rewarding the best players. I didn't know that basketball was only played on offense.

[Erick Blasco]

And before people say what about Nash's defense, Nash is so prolific offensively, not only at making plays himself, but at understanding situations and at being directly responsible for his teammates playing exceptional. Also, Nash has been on high-seeded playoff teams. IF you're going to be all offense (like Nash, Durant, and LeBron early in his career), be really absolutely amazing on offense. Lee's becoming really good but he's not a threat to drop 45 just by walking through the door.

[Real Deal]

And before people say what about Nash's defense, Nash is so prolific offensively, not only at making plays himself, but at understanding situations and at being directly responsible for his teammates playing exceptional. Also, Nash has been on high-seeded playoff teams. IF you're going to be all offense (like Nash, Durant, and LeBron early in his career), be really absolutely amazing on offense. Lee's becoming really good but he's not a threat to drop 45 just by walking through the door.

There are more examples out there than just Steve Nash. Amare Stoudemire is basically David Lee, and I can easily argue that Lee is the better offensive player (by the numbers, he's also a better rebounder). Amare's defense is just as bad as Lee's.

 

Zach Randolph is another example of an offensive player that plays little to no defense.

 

We get the idea that defense is important, but you don't win games if you don't score. Championship teams are great on both sides of the ball. Offensively-injected teams, no defense, can get to the conference finals, and sometimes to the NBA Finals (as you saw with Dallas). Defensive-minded teams, no offense? That was the Charlotte Bobcats before getting Stephen Jackson.

[fish7718]

That's not true. Lee IS the worst defender on the Knicks. Chandler and Duhon are average defenders. Jeffries is a very good defender. Gaillnari is a poor defender, but he can jump high enough to block a few shots. Off the bench, Robinson and Harrington are mistake prone, but aren't worse than Lee.

 

There's a defensive statistic called dMULT, it measures how well all the players of a position perform when matched up against one player. In Lee's case, a dMULT of 1.00 would mean that players play exactly as well against Lee as they normally do. Lee's dMULT is 1.105. That's horrendous.

 

He's not a great positional defender. He's not a shot blocker at all, and he often doesn't contest at the rim.

 

Horford's been solid even when Smith was blowing his top and bricking threes the last couple of years.

 

The All-Star game should be about rewarding the best players. I didn't know that basketball was only played on offense.

I don't know what Knicks basketball you are watching. Chandler and Jeffries are the only 2 good defenders on the Knicks. Duhon is TERRIBLE. I don't follow defensive stats especially when you have a team like the Knicks where you have Jeffries who guards the center most of the time. Like I said I know Lee is not a good defender but he is not horrendous. He does a decent job at challenging shots and doesn't commit alot of fouls. I don't know if you are soley focus on just stats stats stats there comes a time where you actually have to watch the game. Still that being said RD is absolutly right if this game cared about defense Nash wouldn't have nearly as many appearences and Billups would be an all star right now.

[Sky]

Defensive-minded team with minimal offense won a ring in 2004. I know we Laker fans would prefer to forget that, but alas it did happen.

[Big Penny]

Monta Ellis

 

He's been killing it this season

 

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/fe/fullj.176e3c6c396970a7072a5995cbfd974b/176e3c6c396970a7072a5995cbfd974b-getty-90043396rw028_warriors_hornets.jpg

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[Erick Blasco]

I don't know what Knicks basketball you are watching. Chandler and Jeffries are the only 2 good defenders on the Knicks. Duhon is TERRIBLE. I don't follow defensive stats especially when you have a team like the Knicks where you have Jeffries who guards the center most of the time. Like I said I know Lee is not a good defender but he is not horrendous. He does a decent job at challenging shots and doesn't commit alot of fouls. I don't know if you are soley focus on just stats stats stats there comes a time where you actually have to watch the game. Still that being said RD is absolutly right if this game cared about defense Nash wouldn't have nearly as many appearences and Billups would be an all star right now.

 

Ummm, Jeffries guards point guards most of the time. The Knicks also switch most of the 1 through 4 screens they face so Jeffries ends guarding virtually every position on the court EXCEPT center.

 

Lee doesn't commit a lot of fouls because he doesn't try to play defense. He doesn't try to contest shots. He doesn't try to get in good defensive position and do work early.

 

I have scouting reports on all but about 4 teams in the league and those scouting reports have very little to do with generating value based on statistics. I also have some video work, check the media section of the forums. I've watched about half the games the Knicks have played this season.

 

Lee also plays for a subpar team meaning his performance isn't conducive to wins. Nash's team is above 500. That also comes into play. You can't reward players for losing.

[Real Deal]

Defensive-minded team with minimal offense won a ring in 2004. I know we Laker fans would prefer to forget that, but alas it did happen.

Right, but Detroit had Billups, Hamilton and Sheed...scoring from everywhere on the floor. They were around the middle of the league in scoring the ball, not bottom five (like Charlotte was last year AND this season).

 

I realize that Phoenix was the top scoring team in the NBA when they were making their conference finals visits...but they were also in the bottom half, defensively.

 

My point is, as much as you need defense to win games, you need offense as well.

[fish7718]

Ummm, Jeffries guards point guards most of the time. The Knicks also switch most of the 1 through 4 screens they face so Jeffries ends guarding virtually every position on the court EXCEPT center.

 

Lee doesn't commit a lot of fouls because he doesn't try to play defense. He doesn't try to contest shots. He doesn't try to get in good defensive position and do work early.

 

I have scouting reports on all but about 4 teams in the league and those scouting reports have very little to do with generating value based on statistics. I also have some video work, check the media section of the forums. I've watched about half the games the Knicks have played this season.

 

Lee also plays for a subpar team meaning his performance isn't conducive to wins. Nash's team is above 500. That also comes into play. You can't reward players for losing.

Jeffries used to guard point guards he's been guarding centers lately. Can't believe you are telling me this like I wasn't at the game Tuesday watching Jeffries guard Jefferson. No point in going on about this we both agree Lee is not a good defender but 20 10 is all star worthy.

[Sky]

Real - My mantra in all sports is balance wins championships.

 

That Detroit '04 team basically ran the offense through whoever Fisher/Payton was "guarding" to get their points in that series. The Pistons weren't that balanced. Their defense was far superior to their offense and the bulk of their scoring was outside.

 

Chicago, the Bad Boys, that Pistons team, the Spurs all clubs who were more adept defensively than offensively but had enough scoring to win. Your comments seem to imply offense is more important. I disagree. You can be dominant defensively and average to poor offensively and still win rings.

[Real Deal]

Real - My mantra in all sports is balance wins championships.

 

That Detroit '04 team basically ran the offense through whoever Fisher/Payton was "guarding" to get their points in that series. The Pistons weren't that balanced. Their defense was far superior to their offense and the bulk of their scoring was outside.

 

Chicago, the Bad Boys, that Pistons team, the Spurs all clubs who were more adept defensively than offensively but had enough scoring to win. Your comments seem to imply offense is more important. I disagree. You can be dominant defensively and average to poor offensively and still win rings.

Nah, I don't believe offense is more important, nor do I believe it's less important. That's why I've been jumping Bynum's ass about his defense for the past 3-4 weeks on TLN, haha. It's also why I was upset about Steve Nash getting two consecutive MVP awards.

 

But that's one of the reasons why I think Lee should've gotten in as an all-star. If guys like Nash and Nowitzki can win MVP awards without playing defense, and they are both locks to be in all-star games, David Lee's 20/10+ should be enough to stick him in there, especially when Zach Randolph was also a coach's selection.

[Erick Blasco]

Right, but Detroit had Billups, Hamilton and Sheed...scoring from everywhere on the floor. They were around the middle of the league in scoring the ball, not bottom five (like Charlotte was last year AND this season).

 

I realize that Phoenix was the top scoring team in the NBA when they were making their conference finals visits...but they were also in the bottom half, defensively.

 

My point is, as much as you need defense to win games, you need offense as well.

 

Those Phoenix teams were middle of the pack defensively in terms of ratings---17, 16, 13, and 16 during their four-year playoff streak. Boston's Title team was only 10th offensively. Detroit's title team was 18th in offense, and when they lost to the Spurs, they were 17th.

 

A team that's awful offensively and terrific defensively will do about as well, usually a little better, as a team that's terrific offensively and terrible defensively.

[Erick Blasco]

Interesting tidbit, the Spurs have basically been top 5 defensively in rating the entire decade. When their offense has been as elite, they've won the title every year. Sometimes their offense has been right around 13-17. When that happens, the Spurs get bounced in the Conference Finals or second round, but they still make the playoffs and win a few series or two. You can win with elite defenses and average offenses, but you need both to win a title.

[Real Deal]

My point is, as much as you need defense to win games, you need offense as well.

[bravenewworld]

Nash/Paul/D-Wil >>> Billups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Iverson

 

All right now by the way, not all time. I know bravenewworld gets distracted by past accomplishments when it comes to figuring out who the best players are right now, so I felt I had to specify.

 

My bad, i thought when i said "His past achievements are a testament to his leadership and ability today" that would clear up why i mentioned them. I guess not, that must have flown way over your head.

 

Denver is second in the West led by Billups and will most likely be in the conf finals.

 

Utah is 4th and can easily be dropped down to 8th on a day where we see 9 games scheduled. Chances are they will get knocked out in the first again anyway.

 

Hornets might not even make the play offs (or if they do make a low seed they can lose 1-4 to Billups in the first round again)

 

Is that better reasoning?

oh wait.... CP3 puts up good numbers right?

I mean clearly the 5 assists and 1 point extra a game that CP is getting over Billups is helping lead his team to a conference finals like Billups' leadership.

 

*Waits for excuses as to why Hornets are not in the play off hunt right now*

 

I cant wait for advanced statistics to be perfected so that people will stop hanging on to 3 basic stats to measure player quality.

Edited January 30, 2010 by bravenewworld

[Sky]

Five assists is a lot.

 

What Chauncey provides is more valuable in a playoff setting than all-star selection. You may hate that but it's been the reality of all-star selection forever.

 

Real, Erick - Yeah, balance wins championships. Offense/defense, inside/out, athleticsm/hoop iq, young/old, small/big, halfcourt/transition, so many different axes, the more balance you have the more ways you can win. Any aspect that is out of balance is where a team is exploited and attacked. Erick mentioned the Spurs, when they faced the Nets SA just had to do one thing, deny transition since the Nets were out of balance on halfcourt/transition, toast. Can be interesting to go through a study of contenders looking at the balance axes and roster assumptions and see where they are vulnerable.

[His Greatness]

Aside from Iverson, I thought the rosters looked good. Maybe would've swapped Horford for Smith but it's not that bad.

 

The biggest all-star snub would've been Greg Oden if he wasn't injured. That's the last one, I swear.