Does Rivers need to be replaced?

[Lkr]

Before the big three arrived, Rivers wasn't very successful. Great players can make great coaches, but great coaches make great players even greater(see Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, Red Auerbach, etc). The desire to win a title was enough the first year, but now with years of injury and struggle, it seems to me that Rivers isn't cut to coach this talent. I think the Celtics need a new coach to win another title before the big 3 expire

[kingfish]

Wouldnt matter either way. KG is done and I dont think they have enough to win a championship.

[The Artesticle]

I think Larry Brown would be the perfect coach for the Celtics. Celtics are known for their tough defense, they play tough, they play hard, and they are veterans. A perfect team for Brown to coach to play the game "the right way."

 

Too bad it won't happen.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Artesticle

[Sħãlïq™]

I firmly believe it ain't Doc's fault.

[Erick Blasco]

Has anyone ever watched the Celtics and said, man this team isn't well-coached?

 

Rivers has a few flaws, namely he plays his starters a ton (You can tell he's from the Riley school), but coaching isn't Boston's problem. Health, age, and an offensive spark off the bench are their problems.

[bravenewworld]

Has anyone ever watched the Celtics and said, man this team isn't well-coached?

 

Rivers has a few flaws, namely he plays his starters a ton (You can tell he's from the Riley school), but coaching isn't Boston's problem. Health, age, and an offensive spark off the bench are their problems.

I have.

Before the big 3 Rivers was a garbage coach and he has never been great with a team that has not had multiple all-stars on it.

We've never seen him take a team from the ground up and be successful with them. He was with the Celtics for what? 4 years with one(not 100% on that, but im pretty sure it was just one year) of those years being an over 500 team until they got KG and Ray Allen. And even when they did that, their championship season you could look at the bench during a time out and see KG talking more then Doc.

[Check my Stats]

Rivers plays his old guys like they are 25 still, he is an idiot.

[Rajon Rondo]

Wow, is this a serious question? Go back and take a look at the rosters Doc had to work with before they put a contending team together. He overachieved with those teams, just like he did in Orlando when he won his first COY award. I don't think he's a top tier NBA coach, but he's definitely above average.

[bravenewworld]

Wow, is this a serious question? Go back and take a look at the rosters Doc had to work with before they put a contending team together. He overachieved with those teams, just like he did in Orlando when he won his first COY award. I don't think he's a top tier NBA coach, but he's definitely above average.

 

Ok.

06-07 - 24-58... this is overachieving ? 24 wins is what you consider overachieving? A team lead by Pierce and Wally (sorry, but Wally was a good role player with the Celtics) with a [expletive] ton of great young talent around them... and 24 wins is overachieving?

05-06 - 33-49.... Again..... Overachieving? Pierce, Davis (who was a 20 then), Blount, Jefferson, West, Wally, Green, Gomes.... 33 wins....Overachieving?

GTFO.

 

Orlando...

McGrady, Grant Hill, Pat Garity, Armstrong, Big Ben, Outlaw, Mike Miller, Troy Hudson, Horace Grant, Patrick Ewing, Dee Brown, Jacque Vaughn, Shawn Kemp, Giricek.....

Really?

A first round knock out for those three seasons with all those great players for most of the years he was there and THAT was underachieving ?

GTFO.

That [expletive] was underachieving if i have ever seen it.

Kemp, McGrady, Hill, Garity, Armstrong, Grant, Ewing, Brown.... NOT make the second round? Yea... GTFO with this underachieving crap.

[Erick Blasco]

Ok.

06-07 - 24-58... this is overachieving ? 24 wins is what you consider overachieving? A team lead by Pierce and Wally (sorry, but Wally was a good role player with the Celtics) with a [expletive] ton of great young talent around them... and 24 wins is overachieving?

05-06 - 33-49.... Again..... Overachieving? Pierce, Davis (who was a 20 then), Blount, Jefferson, West, Wally, Green, Gomes.... 33 wins....Overachieving?

GTFO.

 

Orlando...

McGrady, Grant Hill, Pat Garity, Armstrong, Big Ben, Outlaw, Mike Miller, Troy Hudson, Horace Grant, Patrick Ewing, Dee Brown, Jacque Vaughn, Shawn Kemp, Giricek.....

Really?

A first round knock out for those three seasons with all those great players for most of the years he was there and THAT was underachieving ?

GTFO.

That [expletive] was underachieving if i have ever seen it.

Kemp, McGrady, Hill, Garity, Armstrong, Grant, Ewing, Brown.... NOT make the second round? Yea... GTFO with this underachieving crap.

 

In Rivers' first year in Boston, he took a team that started Pierce, Raef LaFrentz, Marc Blount, a washed up Gary Payton, a rookie Tony Allen, and Jiri Welsch to the playoffs. Those were the players that started the most games for the Celtics that season. Ricky Davis was their second leading scorer. Rivers took them to the playoffs.

 

In Rivers' second year, the team was gutted with trades in an attempt to rebuild.

 

In Rivers' third year, Pierce was injured, Szczerbiak was injured and the rest of the roster was made up of kids.

 

In Rivers' next year, he won the title.

 

In Orlando, in Rivers' first year, he took a team of expiring contracts to a 41-41 record in 99-00. The core of that team was a baby Ben Wallace, Bo Outlaw, John Amaechi (the most offensively impotent frontcourt ever), and role players like Tariq Abdul-Wahad, and Pat Garrity.

 

From there on out, he was playing with a $10 million dollar a year handicap since Grant Hill was always injured. Plus, he was limited by T-Mac's relative softness. He still made the playoffs three straight years with players like Andrew DeClercq, Pat Garrity, and the ghosts of Shawn Kemp and Patrick Ewing contributing major minutes.

 

Of course he won little with the garbage rosters he's had to work with. He still almost upset last year's Eastern Conference champs last season with arguably his best player injured, and no depth.

[SRT Spidey]

it has nothing to do with Rivers. The team just simply isn't as good as we used to be the other teams have caught up (orlando,cleveland) and bostons getting too old to keep up with them. i will never forgot my 08 championship Celtics that was a great time. and thats why Danny brought them here, to get us a title. But soon it will be time to say bye to our old vets like injury-prone KG and Allen and move in the younger generation..i dont think we can win again with these guys.

[Rajon Rondo]

Ok.

06-07 - 24-58... this is overachieving ? 24 wins is what you consider overachieving? A team lead by Pierce and Wally (sorry, but Wally was a good role player with the Celtics) with a [expletive] ton of great young talent around them... and 24 wins is overachieving?

Great start. I hope this is satire. You realize that Pierce and Wally were injured for pretty much this entire season, right? Also, where was the young talent? Which player, besides Jefferson (who played no D at all back then), has amounted to anything more than a decent role player out of that group? You also forget that after the All-Star break, the Celtics were tanking to get as many ping pong balls in the Oden/Durant sweepstakes as possible. You either have a selective memory, or you're just delusional.

05-06 - 33-49.... Again..... Overachieving? Pier ce, Davis (who was a 20 then), Blount, Jefferson, West, Wally, Green, Gomes.... 33 wins....Overachieving?

GTFO.

This is hilarious! Ricky Davis? Garbage. Always was. A me-first player who did nothing but shoot a lot. What has he done is his career to convince you he's good? Mark Blount? Are you kidding? I hope so. Gerald Green? He still sucks after years of development, imagine how bad he was as a HS rookie. These teams were Pierce and nobody else.

Orlando...

McGrady, Grant Hill, Pat Garity, Armstrong, Big Ben, Outlaw, Mike Miller, Troy Hudson, Horace Grant, Patrick Ewing, Dee Brown, Jacque Vaughn, Shawn Kemp, Giricek.....

Really?

A first round knock out for those three seasons with all those great players for most of the years he was there and THAT was underachieving ?

GTFO.

That [expletive] was underachieving if i have ever seen it.

Kemp, McGrady, Hill, Garity, Armstrong, Grant, Ewing, Brown.... NOT make the second round? Yea... GTFO with this underachieving crap.

Wow. You realize Grant Hill was injured for his entire Orlando Magic career. He played a total of 14 games that year. And Shawn Kemp? Please be joking. He was a great player in Seattle, but a complete joke in Cleveland and Orlando, especially Orlando. You listed him first, too, even though he wasn't on the team that year. Please tell me you are 12 years old because that would be the only acceptable excuse for thinking Kemp was good that late in his career, anyway. And Ewing, he played that one year in Orlando. he was 39 years old and averaged 6 points a game. Who's Brown? Dee Brown? He played 7 games and scored a total of 7 points that year. Horace Grant was 36, and past his prime. But anyways, excuse me while I GTFO.

[Sħãlïq™]

I have.

Before the big 3 Rivers was a garbage coach and he has never been great with a team that has not had multiple all-stars on it.

We've never seen him take a team from the ground up and be successful with them. He was with the Celtics for what? 4 years with one(not 100% on that, but im pretty sure it was just one year) of those years being an over 500 team until they got KG and Ray Allen. And even when they did that, their championship season you could look at the bench during a time out and see KG talking more then Doc.

I can't agree Rivers was a 'garbage coach'. In 1999-'00 he was voted Coach of the Year for guiding the Magic to a 41-41 season.

[Lkr]

I can't agree Rivers was a 'garbage coach'. In 1999-'00 he was voted Coach of the Year for guiding the Magic to a 41-41 season.

the fact someone got coach of the year for being 41-41 is garbage. Rivers isn't any good

[Rajon Rondo]

the fact someone got coach of the year for being 41-41 is garbage. Rivers isn't any good

Why, though? Because you say so? Look at the roster for that team:

 

Darrell Armstrong was the leading scorer. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2000.html

 

That team went .500, if I didn't know it actually happened, I would refuse to believe it.

 

You have no reason to say Doc is a bad coach. I follow the Celtics more closely than most, and I can't think of one reason why anybody could consider him a "bad" coach. Sure, he could improve in a few areas, but that can be said about every coach.

[CaliCurbStomppa]

Fire him when he is the #8 seed or w/e with Paul Pierce and Garrett on his team. Maybe even fire him if they are down to 6, 7 seed. You guys might be right about one thing. Its so easy for a coach to win when he has like 3 superstars but when he doesn't then he doesn't really have the brain to coach in the league. Look at Mike Brown, if he didn't have LeBron James on his team would we honestly see him coaching today? It funny managers will hire anybody because they think they can coach but it take load more to be a great coach if ur determined.

Edited February 23, 2010 by CaliCurbStomppa

[bravenewworld]

Great start. I hope this is satire. You realize that Pierce and Wally were injured for pretty much this entire season, right? Also, where was the young talent? Which player, besides Jefferson (who played no D at all back then), has amounted to anything more than a decent role player out of that group? You also forget that after the All-Star break, the Celtics were tanking to get as many ping pong balls in the Oden/Durant sweepstakes as possible. You either have a selective memory, or you're just delusional.

Pierce was injured half the season. Wally was injured over half. Ok, sure. This one can be slightly excusable. But nothing else. Even so, good coaches create winning systems that do not have to rely on superstar players. BTW, Pierce played 47 games, win half of those and you are at 23, a good coach would have been able to pull out at least 7 more wins with a good system while PP was out.

 

This is hilarious! Ricky Davis? Garbage. Always was. A me-first player who did nothing but shoot a lot. What has he done is his career to convince you he's good? Mark Blount? Are you kidding? I hope so. Gerald Green? He still sucks after years of development, imagine how bad he was as a HS rookie. These teams were Pierce and nobody else.

Rickey Davis was 20 point guy who was a good defender. Like it or not, he was a great role player for that team and any team that has two guys talented enough to get 20+ and 3 or so players who can get 14+ and 5 or 6 more who can get 8+ should not be expected to be below 500. If they are, then they are being very poorly coached.

 

Wow. You realize Grant Hill was injured for his entire Orlando Magic career. He played a total of 14 games that year. And Shawn Kemp? Please be joking. He was a great player in Seattle, but a complete joke in Cleveland and Orlando, especially Orlando. You listed him first, too, even though he wasn't on the team that year. Please tell me you are 12 years old because that would be the only acceptable excuse for thinking Kemp was good that late in his career, anyway. And Ewing, he played that one year in Orlando. he was 39 years old and averaged 6 points a game. Who's Brown? Dee Brown? He played 7 games and scored a total of 7 points that year. Horace Grant was 36, and past his prime. But anyways, excuse me while I GTFO.

 

Hill was injured for much of his career with Doc. And he played 29 games, not 14. Take him out of the line up and you still have a team stacked with fantastic role players, old franchise hall of famers and a healthy TMac.

Say what you want about the older players, but these are the guys that are added to championship teams year after year and many provide the necessary piece for that team to win that trophy (take a look at the past 10 years of titles for proof and see who teams added for that extra experience push).

Fact is, come play off time any team would have been better off with a 20mpg 7/7 old experienced Kemp then a 15ppg 2-3 year player with little or no clutch experience.

 

See a re-occurring theme here?

Doc has proven time and time again that his system (what actually matters as a coach) is a poor one.

Edited February 23, 2010 by bravenewworld

[Rajon Rondo]

Dude, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I can't even respond to such nonsense.

[Erick Blasco]

Even so, good coaches create winning systems that do not have to rely on superstar players.

 

In one of the seasons bridging Stockton/Malone and Deron Williams, Andrei Kirilenko was injured. That year, Utah finished 26-56. You can't coach garbage to an NBA championship. It's a players-driven league. All you can do is get the most out of your players. Rivers maxxed out a stacked roster to a championship. He maxed out a ton of bad teams to playoff berths. Last season he maxed out a team with its arguably best player injured to taking the Eastern Conference champions to seven games in the second round.

 

Rickey Davis was 20 point guy who was a good defender. Like it or not, he was a great role player for that team and any team that has two guys talented enough to get 20+ and 3 or so players who can get 14+ and 5 or 6 more who can get 8+ should not be expected to be below 500. If they are, then they are being very poorly coached.

 

Find me any credible source ANYWHERE who considered Davis a good defender. The year he averaged 20 points, he shot 41% and had a true shooting% of under 50%. That's awful, plus his team went nowhere. Davis never played hard, was selfish, and can't even be called overrated because everyone actually knows that he's terrible. That's why good teams never take him on, or become worse with him.

 

 

Hill was injured for much of his career with Doc. And he played 29 games, not 14. Take him out of the line up and you still have a team stacked with fantastic role players, old franchise hall of famers and a healthy TMac.

Say what you want about the older players, but these are the guys that are added to championship teams year after year and many provide the necessary piece for that team to win that trophy (take a look at the past 10 years of titles for proof and see who teams added for that extra experience push).

Fact is, come play off time any team would have been better off with a 20mpg 7/7 old experienced Kemp then a 15ppg 2-3 year player with little or no clutch experience.

 

It's like blaming Eddie Jordan because Allen Iverson and Elton Brand are on the Sixers and they're struggling, without looking at the fact that Brand has been sapped by injuries, and Iverson has been sapped by age. Old Hall of Famers are old players. Michael Finley used to be a perennial All-Star. If Popovich can't win a title, will people look at Popovich and say, how could he not win with Michael Finley?

 

Shawn Kemp was a mistake player his entire career who was done before he came to Orlando. Patrick Ewing was done before he came to Orlando. They were has beens.

 

Stacked? Show me stacked. Here's T-MAC's healthy teammates.

 

00-01

 

Darrell Armstrong

Mike Miller

John Amaechi

Pat Garrity

Bo Outlaw

Michael Doleac

Monty Williams

Troy Hudson

Andrew Declercq

Don Reid

 

A solid spark-plug point guard who was always better as a backup, the streaky Miller, the ordinary Garrity, and some generic bangers, pick-and-pop players, and ball movers.

 

01-02

 

Armstrong

Miller

Hudson

Garrity

Horace Grant (who was ancient by that time)

Williams

Patrick Ewing (who was washed up)

Reid

Declercq

Jud Bucheler (veteran roster filler)

 

Where's the supporting cast?

 

02-03

 

Garrity

Armstrong

Miller

Jacque Vaughn (a good defender who could never shoot)

Shawn Kemp (who was washed up)

Declercq

Jeryl Sasser (who?)

Gordan Giricek (an average shooter with limited athleticism and a ball sticker)

Pat Burke (a terrible player)

Drew Gooden (for a small portion of the season)

 

Where's this great supporting cast?

 

In 03-04, the Magic started off 1-10, Rivers was fired and that was that.

 

You want to coach T-MAC and crap, be my guest. Name one player there that you trust in a playoff series. For all the criticism of T-MAC, most of it deserved, he didn't have too much offensive help in his career in Orlando.

 

See a re-occurring theme here?

Doc has proven time and time again that his system (what actually matters as a coach) is a poor one. the one year he had a healthy, talented roster, he won a championship.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Erick Blasco