Kobe better than Jordan?

[Guest Need4Sheed]

I'm just curious.

 

Are there any Lakers fan that think Kobe is better than Jordan?

 

Or has surpassed him to be the greatest all time?

[Warren2ThaG]

Not quite yet, if ever. Maybe with 7 rings.

[Real Deal]

I think Kobe's offensive game is the best of all-time, if you drop Wilt from the list (because Wilt was being defended by 6-9 players most of his career).

 

Kobe's post game is as good as MJ's, and I'd say better. I've never seen any guard or forward with the post moves Kobe has.

 

Bryant also has more range. Jordan added a three to his game back in 1992 or 1993, but Kobe can hit from 25 feet out with a guy in his face.

 

Passing? I'd take Kobe. He's flashier and more accurate. I think this was already put into place during the Kobe/Shaq era, to be honest. Bryant squeezed a ton of passes into areas Jordan probably wouldn't be able to put them in off penetrations.

 

By the numbers, Kobe is a better clutch shooter, and I've seen him hit more game-winners with two guys in his face than Jordan did.

 

Defensively, it goes to MJ. When he gambled, it paid off most of the time, resulting in a high number of steals. On-ball defense, help defense, I'll still give to MJ. People don't realize how good of a defender he was because they were so used to watching Scottie lock up players.

 

Take away all of the rings and MVP awards, and Kobe is the better player.

 

So, let's put it this way: Michael Jordan is the greatest player to play the game. Kobe is the best overall player to play.

 

I have watched Jordan since 1990, and seen old games in the 80's...watched him more than any other player, really.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKgaeAoa-g

 

If you watch that, and compare the two games, you'll agree with me.

[JWaLL]

No. Jordan is still better than Kobe. Kobe has the better shot and post game, but Jordan is better in every other category.

 

/thread

[s.t.a.t.]

The only thing I hate about Kobe is that he is a crybaby [expletive]. He can do something and get away with it but then complains more than any other player. This has nothing to do with his ability as a player because he is amazing. But I think he needs an attitude adjustment haha.And I know you will argue with me that Jordan was arrogant prick also, but I dont remember Jordan complaining like Kobe. Especially that season before they got Pau Gasol, I hated Kobes attitude sooo much. But player wise, I guess I havnt watched enough of Jordan to fully asses it, but Jordan will be considered the GOAT for a long while I think.

[Flash]

Not a chance. I'll take 23 10 times out of 10 in any situation.

[Real Deal]

The only thing I hate about Kobe is that he is a crybaby [expletive]. He can do something and get away with it but then complains more than any other player. This has nothing to do with his ability as a player because he is amazing. But I think he needs an attitude adjustment haha.And I know you will argue with me that Jordan was arrogant prick also, but I dont remember Jordan complaining like Kobe. Especially that season before they got Pau Gasol, I hated Kobes attitude sooo much. But player wise, I guess I havnt watched enough of Jordan to fully asses it, but Jordan will be considered the GOAT for a long while I think.

Kobe gets upset with the refs more than Jordan did, and Jordan was a bigger jackass to his teammates. I actually don't like seeing either of that...but Jordan picking at his teammates like a vulture made them better, and Kobe complaining about calls has helped him every now and then as well (much like when Phil Jackson takes a fine for post-game comments), so it has worked in positive ways for both players.

[YugoRocketsFan]

Michael Jordan only didnt hit so many game winners because the Bulls always won by a lot, the Lakers in the past few years have intentionally made the score close to get Kobe some game-winners it seems like.

[ChosenOne]

No not yet, when Kobe's career comes to an end then we will be able to compare. We cant compare a player that is playing right now to a player that has retired, lol especially after a game winner by Kobe lol.

[AboveLegit]

So, let's put it this way: Michael Jordan is the greatest player to play the game. Kobe is the best overall player to play.

How is he exactly better overall? Let's put two things into consideration, half of the game is defense, and the other half if offense.

 

The fact that Jordan has the higher career scoring average proves he is a better scorer. It doesn't matter how you score, if you're as efficient as Jordan was (he shot at a higher FG than Kobe), you're going to be considered better. Jordan is clearly the better defender as well.

 

So I don't see how Jordan being the greatest player ever and not the greatest overall player makes sense.

[The Regime]

Also to add to what Brandon said, Kobe's footwork is miles better than Jordans ever was. And defensively Kobe is the better shotblocker but that's about it. The separation between Kobe and and Jordan is real slim, Kobe needs a couple more championships to cement his legacy.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Confidence

[Lemon]

Michael Jordan is better mostly because of his consistency. Sure Kobe scored 81 but Jordan averaged 30+ in more seasons. Also Kobe sure has the fundamentals down more than anyone can say for any other player, but Jordan had the athleticism. There's a difference between knowing how to do something and how to do something consistent and with ease. I think it was Tex Winter that said something like "Kobe knows the game a lot better than he plays it."

[YugoRocketsFan]

Lets also add that Kobe has 1 finals mvp and Jordan has 6 of them. Kobe had Shaq, just like Jordan had Pippen but Pippen was his Robin just like Kobe was Shaq's Robin. Shaq was the leader at the time, Kobe has only 1 ring as THE player. Jordan took his team to an amazing 72-10, which nobody will ever do, and Jordan has the highest PPG average next to Wilt which is a 30.1 ppg. Kobe isnt the better scorer or the better defender, hes just a seriously good player in this era.

 

Id also like to add that the better passer? I dont agree with Real Deal on the Kobe being a better passer part. Jordan averaged more assists per game than Kobe ever did, I'd say equal with a very small margin in Jordan's favor.

Edited March 10, 2010 by YugoRocketsFan

[Check my Stats]

No one will ever win 6 rings again in the NBA so if 6 rings is required to be on MJ's level, no one will be.

[Real Deal]

How is he exactly better overall? Let's put two things into consideration, half of the game is defense, and the other half if offense.

 

The fact that Jordan has the higher career scoring average proves he is a better scorer. It doesn't matter how you score, if you're as efficient as Jordan was (he shot at a higher FG than Kobe), you're going to be considered better. Jordan is clearly the better defender as well.

 

So I don't see how Jordan being the greatest player ever and not the greatest overall player makes sense.

So you consider Wade and LeBron, and even Durant, better scorers than Kobe because they shoot a higher FG percentage?

 

Dwyane Wade's career scoring average is higher than Karl Malone's. Do you think that Wade is the better scorer?

 

Jerry West has a career scoring average of 27 PPG. Is he a better scorer than Kobe?

 

LeBron is currently third, all-time, on career scoring average...below Jordan (1st) and Wilt (2nd). What exactly does that mean?

 

Lets also add that Kobe has 1 finals mvp and Jordan has 6 of them. Kobe had Shaq, just like Jordan had Pippen but Pippen was his Robin just like Kobe was Shaq's Robin. Shaq was the leader at the time, Kobe has only 1 ring as THE player. Jordan took his team to an amazing 72-10, which nobody will ever do, and Jordan has the highest PPG average next to Wilt which is a 30.1 ppg. Kobe isnt the better scorer or the better defender, hes just a seriously good player in this era.

If Kobe was Shaq's "Robin" as you say, give me one other "Robin" in NBA history that averaged 28.5 PPG, 6 RPG and 5 APG on 46% shooting (Kobe's second championship). Just one.

[YugoRocketsFan]

So you consider Wade and LeBron, and even Durant, better scorers than Kobe because they shoot a higher FG percentage?

 

Dwyane Wade's career scoring average is higher than Karl Malone's. Do you think that Wade is the better scorer?

 

Jerry West has a career scoring average of 27 PPG. Is he a better scorer than Kobe?

 

LeBron is currently third, all-time, on career scoring average...below Jordan (1st) and Wilt (2nd). What exactly does that mean?

 

 

If Kobe was Shaq's "Robin" as you say, give me one other "Robin" in NBA history that averaged 28.5 PPG, 6 RPG and 5 APG on 46% shooting (Kobe's second championship). Just one.

 

Well then Kobe just is the best Robin ever considering Shaq averaged 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg and 2.8 BPG

[Real Deal]

Id also like to add that the better passer? I dont agree with Real Deal on the Kobe being a better passer part. Jordan averaged more assists per game than Kobe ever did, I'd say equal with a very small margin in Jordan's favor.

I'm going to take a guess and say Jamaal Tinsley averages more assists (career) than Jason Williams. Who's the better passer?

 

I'll go even further: Kevin Johnson has a higher career assist average than Steve Nash. Nash is one of the greatest passers in NBA history. Who's the better passer?

 

Assists need to be converted by teammates. When you have Pippen, Kerr, Kukoc, Armstrong, Paxson, Hodges, and Harper all surrounding the perimeter and knocking down shots, you're going to average more assists than most.

 

On the other hand, Bryant would dump the ball into Shaq, and O'Neal would take dribbles and either put the ball up, or kick it back out. Either that, or Bryant would create for himself...two man game.

 

Chicago was the most complete team ever. Kobe and Shaq was one of the greatest duos ever.

[Real Deal]

Well then Kobe just is the best Robin ever considering Shaq averaged 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg and 2.8 BPG

There's nobody that has even come close to Kobe's numbers as a second fiddle, not in the last two decades at least. Not one player in the league, or retired.

 

Bryant's hand was just as deep in the cookie jar. He ran the offense AND scored just as much as Shaq. He actually shot the ball 22 times per game, Shaq at 19 times. A second fiddle? Someone's Robin? Who does that?

[AboveLegit]

Kobe has never had a year where he shot better than 50% from the field... Jordan did that 5 times in a row.

 

I never said FG% tells the whole story about the scorer, but it does imply how efficient they are. Jordan is much more consistent, and scored the ball more. If that doesn't tell you he's the better score, I don't know what to say..

 

... it's about FG%. If you aren't scoring at an efficient rate, you can score more and your team wins less.

 

Being on a worse team wasn't gonna make Kobe's FG% go up.

 

Jordan put up 33.6 PPG on 52.6% FG on a 1990 Bulls team that took the world champs to game 7...

 

Jordan had quicker footspeed and was more powerful at the point of attack. Now, could Kobe get up like MJ if he had a clear lane and didn't have to dunk over contact from elite players? Sure he could. So can Vince Carter. Hell, so could Eddie Robinson.

 

To turn Kobe into Jordan, you'd literally have to give him Isiah Thomas' first step, and then the strength of a Scottie Pippen. That would turn Kobe into Jordan offensively.

 

Want to talk physical ability... Tayshaun Prince in the 2004 Finals. Kobe shot 38%, the Lakers lost. Where was the physical ability that Jordan displayed while being triple teamed by players like Dumars, Thomas, Rodman, Salley and Laimbeer? Because if you could do what he did v. that team, even in the tough seven-game losses, you don't then turn around and get exposed by Tayshaun Prince for a whole series.

[Real Deal]

Kobe has never had a year where he shot better than 50% from the field... Jordan did that 5 times in a row.

 

I never said FG% tells the whole story about the scorer, but it does imply how efficient they are. Jordan is much more consistent, and scored the ball more. If that doesn't tell you he's the better score, I don't know what to say..

 

... it's about FG%. If you aren't scoring at an efficient rate, you can score more and your team wins less.

 

Being on a worse team wasn't gonna make Kobe's FG% go up.

 

Jordan put up 33.6 PPG on 52.6% FG on a 1990 Bulls team that took the world champs to game 7...

 

Jordan had quicker footspeed and was more powerful at the point of attack. Now, could Kobe get up like MJ if he had a clear lane and didn't have to dunk over contact from elite players? Sure he could. So can Vince Carter. Hell, so could Eddie Robinson.

 

To turn Kobe into Jordan, you'd literally have to give him Isiah Thomas' first step, and then the strength of a Scottie Pippen. That would turn Kobe into Jordan offensively.

 

Want to talk physical ability... Tayshaun Prince in the 2004 Finals. Kobe shot 38%, the Lakers lost. Where was the physical ability that Jordan displayed while being triple teamed by players like Dumars, Thomas, Rodman, Salley and Laimbeer? Because if you could do what he did v. that team, even in the tough seven-game losses, you don't then turn around and get exposed by Tayshaun Prince for a whole series.

For one, Kobe was doubled by Prince and Rip, then cut off by Wallace in the paint. It was a way to clog the passing lane between Kobe and Shaq, and prevent Kobe from driving. Therefore, he had to shoot over a lanky Prince from 20+ feet out.

 

Jordan was triple-teamed? With a zone? Zone defense was illegal, and back then, once you committed to a double, you had to stay with it. No team put three on Jordan. Detroit's defensive stance on Jordan was deemed the "Jordan Rules" because it was physical, with multiple defenders thrown at him all game (meaning, not together, but different defenders at different times). Few double-teams, no triple-teams.

 

If you triple-teamed a player in the 80's and 90's, there would be a 99% chance that team scores on you, because you would have to commit to it, there would be two guys open.

 

Kobe doesn't shoot 50% because he shoots the ball more than Jordan ever did. He's got more range on his shot, and he shoots over doubles much more than Jordan ever did.

 

Plus, go take a look at WHEN Jordan shot 50+ from the floor in a season. In the second dynasty, his numbers began to fall because he drove less to the rim. He became more of a jumpshooter.

 

You can't compare field goal percentages unless you consider Kobe shooting more jumpers. You might as well tell us all that Bynum is a better scorer than Jordan because he shoots 55-60% from the floor.

[AboveLegit]

So let me get this straight, because Kobe takes more ill-advised shots over multiple defenders, we should cut him some slack?

 

No, FG& is FG%, there's no exceptions to this. There's no point in throwing in players like Bynum, this is Jordan vs Kobe, let's leave it to that.

 

So... let's take Kobe's FGA per game from 2004....

 

Kobe Bryant 04

18.1 FGA per game, 24.0 PPG

 

Michael Jordan 89

22.2 FGA per game 32.5 PPG

 

Now do this...

 

18.1 divided by 22.2 = .8227

 

.8227 x 32.5 = 26.7 PPG

 

So you see, who you play with doesn't change the RATE at which you score. In fact, if other players are drawing attention, you might actually score at a higher rate. For example, when Jordan was young and athletic, he shot a higher % with Pippen and Grant than he did without them (85-87).

 

So, you can bring Karl Malone and Gary Payton into the equation, and you can throw Reggie Miller in there to if you want to. It doesn't change the FG%.

 

So if you give Jordan Kobe's EXACT number of shots in 2004, here is the comparison you would get:

 

Kobe Bryant 18.1 shots per game, 24 PPG, 43.8% FG

Michael Jordan 18.1 shots per game, 26.7 PPG, 53.8% FG

 

Which one looks MARKEDLY better than the other?

 

You can go on and on about "waaa, Kobe had to share with Shaq...."

 

Okay... in 2002, Kobe shoots 20.0 shots per game and averages 25.2 PPG. Again... in 1989, Jordan shoots 22.2 FGA per game and averages 32.5 PPG... on TWO extra shots.

 

20 divided by 22.2 = .9009 x 32.5 = 29.2 PPG

 

So, you give Jordan those same shots that POOR Kobe had to live with, and he's scoring 4 more PPG... in a game where one possession can make or break you in quality matchups, I'd say that's significant.

 

Kobe is also not more skilled than Jordan. Take "the shot" v. Cleveland. How many players can go full speed toward their off hand, then jump going left, suspend themselves in air while squaring up, and then hit a true elimination shot (an elimination shot means... you hit it, you win a series, you miss it, you lose a series) from the free throw line. What "ridiculous shot" has Kobe hit that measures up to that?

 

What about the game-tying shot down the stretch in game 3 of the 91 Finals. MJ drives full court past Scott, then pulls up, gets a running jumper off barely over the tips of Divac's hand, HIGH arching and comes down nothing but net.

 

Not what the corporate media takes from his best years in terms of making them money.... the best Jordan ever seen was in 1989.... 32.5 PPG, 8 RPG 8 APG... like 9 30 point 10 assist games in one postseason.

[Real Deal]

You completely lost me there. Again, Kobe didn't drive to the rim as much as Jordan, and you know that. Therefore, his FG percentage will be lower. Drives to the rim = higher field goal percentage.

 

And Jordan shot at a high FG% with Scottie because it was Pippen facilitating the triangle offense, something Jordan has never had to do. Kobe has been doing it since 1999.

 

If you're going to compare the two players, compare Kobe's last three seasons to Jordan's last three in Chicago. All six of those seasons are considered MVP-caliber. Then, consider who they had on their teams, and their roles in the triangle offense.

 

You can do all the math you want, figure rates and what-not. I'm sure I can make arguments for players being better than Jordan doing that, really. Hell, I wonder how great I can make Steve Nash seem as a scorer.

 

And come on dude...that nonsense about Kobe not being able to hit a big shot like Jordan's Cavaliers game-winner...really? He has seven game-winners just this season, one fading away over Wade for three. He hit a game-tying three against Portland to go into OT in 2004, then hit a fade-away, buzzer-beating game-winning thee to win the division that same game. He made a game-tying floater to send Game 4 versus the Suns into OT, then the very same game, hit the game-winning fade-away over two Suns defenders to win that playoff game.

 

I think you're boosting Jordan's resume a bit.

[AboveLegit]

Like I said, I truly do not believe the excuse that player X shoots more long range jumpers therefore we shouldn't use FG% in an argument. Jordan knew what he had to do in order for him to score, and that was to use his athleticism and drive to the basket, or post up on a defender and fadeaway on him. Am I admitting Kobe has a better three point shot? Of course I am, but that one aspect alone doesn't make him the more talented player on offense. With all things considered (passing, scoring, etc), I don't see how you can't go with Jordan.

 

I didn't bring up all that math for no reason though. I used it to show how effective Jordan is with the ball in his hands as opposed to Kobe. Stats are stats, there's no way to prove otherwise. It's all there. With Kobe and Jordan both taking the same amount of shots, Jordan was the one who came out on top with the higher scoring average.

 

I used "the shot" as an example, not as a justification for how much better Jordan is in the clutch. I openly admitted the fact that Kobe is the better clutch performer, I have nothing but respect for him, believe me. BUT, that shot is just a taste of how good Jordan was, and how skilled he was on offense.

[Real Deal]

If "stats are stats" as you claim, why did you claim that Kobe Bryant was a better player than LeBron James? Just curious...

[AboveLegit]

If "stats are stats" as you claim, why did you claim that Kobe Bryant was a better player than LeBron James? Just curious...

Because stats only tell me half the story..

 

I hope you're not implying that Kobe uses his fundamentals better than Jordan did.. If anything, they're on the same level.