Kobe better than Jordan?

[Multi-Billionaire]

Kobe, err.. Real Deal still uses stats... It worked in 2004-2005 on JBB but not in today's era.

 

Kobe is the biggest [expletive] I've seen, he should have had 6 techs in Denver game but after 1 tech, the refs had to beg him not to go crazy because it'd mean throwing him out and they lost their jobs. When you block Kobe clean/ all ball, he'd throw his fists around wanting fouls... that's a [expletive]. Jordan is wayyy better than him.

 

MJ had charisma Kobe would never ever have... when MJ enters a room even today, he turns heads more than any athlete does except maybe Tiger Woods. When Kobe enters, it's just Kobe lol

[Lemon]

^ JR Smith is that you?

Edited March 11, 2010 by Lemon

[Lkr]

Kobe, err.. Real Deal still uses stats... It worked in 2004-2005 on JBB but not in today's era.

 

Kobe is the biggest [expletive] I've seen, he should have had 6 techs in Denver game but after 1 tech, the refs had to beg him not to go crazy because it'd mean throwing him out and they lost their jobs. When you block Kobe clean/ all ball, he'd throw his fists around wanting fouls... that's a [expletive]. Jordan is wayyy better than him.

 

MJ had charisma Kobe would never ever have... when MJ enters a room even today, he turns heads more than any athlete does except maybe Tiger Woods. When Kobe enters, it's just Kobe lol

I know this post is a big troll attempt by you, but I think people would be pretty pleased to see the best or second best player in the game today depending on if you prefer him or LeBron

[Nitro]

What's up ya'll? Long-time since I've posted here. Anyway...

 

For years now I have said that Kobe's the most skilled player to ever play the game. His game is as refined as the game has ever seen...from his raw basketball IQ to his near-perfect jumpshot (that extends as far as he wants it to), to his incredible footwork, passing ability, defense..the guy has it all.

 

With that said, there is always a gap between talent/skill and overall effectiveness. If talent and skill meant everything, T-Mac, who at one time was right there with Kobe in every aspect of the offensive side of the game, would have been one of the greatest to ever play. Obviously, that didn't work out (sigh...). I'll ellaborate more on that idea and how it relates to this topic throughout this post...

 

Kobe's post game is as good as MJ's, and I'd say better. I've never seen any guard or forward with the post moves Kobe has.

 

In terms of post-game at the guard position, Kobe and Jordan are 1A and 1B. Both have/had unbelievable footwork, fadeaway jumper, and IQ to abuse smaller players in the post. Kobe is probably the more talented post player...he is a better ballhandler than Jordan was, and thus he has more moves/options to go to when he has the post position. Kobe also has a better off-hand than Jordan did, which occasionally will enable him to do some things that Jordan just couldn't in the post.

 

With all that said, Jordan was the more effective post player, especially from '95-'98. Jordan was stronger and did a better job than Kobe at getting a good 3-5ft deeper on his post-ups, giving him higher % looks most of the time. And while Kobe's jumper overall is better, Jordan was LETHAL in the mid-post with the fadeaway. And when Jordan got close to the basket, he was the better finisher at the rim at every point of his career than Kobe was at those same points in his own respective career.

 

Jordan was strictly a mid-post player after his first retirement and still managed to notch 3 scoring titles, with FG %'s the first 2 years better than Kobe has ever had in his career. And when Jordan came back yet again with the Wizards as he knocked down 40's door, he still was able to average 23PPG and 20PPG in his 2 seasons there, including being the oldest player to have a 50pt game. And by that point he was not scoring anywhere but the post.

 

Bryant also has more range. Jordan added a three to his game back in 1992 or 1993, but Kobe can hit from 25 feet out with a guy in his face.

 

No complaint.

 

Passing? I'd take Kobe. He's flashier and more accurate. I think this was already put into place during the Kobe/Shaq era, to be honest. Bryant squeezed a ton of passes into areas Jordan probably wouldn't be able to put them in off penetrations.

 

Disagree. Again, it comes to talent/skill vs. effectiveness. I might agree with you in saying that Kobe has the ability to make flashier passes and at times can be a tremendous playmaker for his teammates.

 

With that said, Kobe's had only 2 seasons in his career with over 5.5APG...one year he averaged 5.9APG but also 3.5 TO's, and the other was the one year in his prime where he was not playing within the triangle and he averaged 6.0APG...with 4.1 TO's, which is a high number. Early in Jordan's career, right about when Phil Jackson was hired as head coach of the Bulls and Pippen was still growing, Jordan was given the duty of being the primary playmaker/ballhandler and in a 4-year stretch he had seasons with 8.0APG, 6.3APG, 5.5APG and 6.1APG...with his highest TO number in that 4 year stretch being 3.6.

 

Phil Jackson himself said that when he was put in the PG position and was committed to playing the position, that Jordan could dominate at point. The biggest reason was that Jordan, especially young MJ, was pentrating the defense at will and because he was so disgustingly productive scoring the ball when he still had that explosiveness, he constantly had the defense collapsing and not knowing what to do. That leaves plently of open shooters. Early MJ was almost identical to D-Wade in that regard...you can say what you want about Wade's raw passing ability and playmaking, but because of how often he gets into the paint it leaves many players open to let him notch 7-8APG. Kobe's game is more perimeter oriented and always has been, and thus it is a lot tougher for him to do some of the things at PG that Jordan could.

 

By the numbers, Kobe is a better clutch shooter, and I've seen him hit more game-winners with two guys in his face than Jordan did.

 

Agreed. Although with that said, Jordan was just as good if not better than Kobe when it comes to overall clutch situations...his play was ALWAYS elevated in the playoffs. In 13 post-seasons (that's post-seasons, not just individual series'), Jordan averaged less than 30PPG only ONCE (rookie year), averaged less than 46% shooting only twice (both post-seasons were 3-4 games long for him), SEVEN times averaged over 34PPG, SIX times averaged over 6APG, SEVEN times averaged 6.5RPG or better...the guy was just a monster in the playoffs. That's not to say Kobe is a slouch in the playoffs, but Jordan's numbers just destroy Kobe's in the post-season, even dring Kobe's best years.

 

Defensively, it goes to MJ. When he gambled, it paid off most of the time, resulting in a high number of steals. On-ball defense, help defense, I'll still give to MJ. People don't realize how good of a defender he was because they were so used to watching Scottie lock up players.

 

Agreed, although I will say when committed, Kobe is every bit as good of an on-ball defender as MJ.

 

 

 

So yeah, those are my counter-points to your arguement. To sum it up, as I said multiple times, it's skill/talent vs. effectiveness when it comes to comparing most aspects of these 2 players. Kobe has always had a higher ceiling than MJ due to being the greater talent, but because of how the two play over 82 game seasons/post-seasons/careers, MJ was the better, more effective player.

[Be Like Mike]

I think Kobe's offensive game is the best of all-time, if you drop Wilt from the list (because Wilt was being defended by 6-9 players most of his career).

 

Kobe's post game is as good as MJ's, and I'd say better. I've never seen any guard or forward with the post moves Kobe has.

 

Bryant also has more range. Jordan added a three to his game back in 1992 or 1993, but Kobe can hit from 25 feet out with a guy in his face.

 

Passing? I'd take Kobe. He's flashier and more accurate. I think this was already put into place during the Kobe/Shaq era, to be honest. Bryant squeezed a ton of passes into areas Jordan probably wouldn't be able to put them in off penetrations.

 

By the numbers, Kobe is a better clutch shooter, and I've seen him hit more game-winners with two guys in his face than Jordan did.

 

Defensively, it goes to MJ. When he gambled, it paid off most of the time, resulting in a high number of steals. On-ball defense, help defense, I'll still give to MJ. People don't realize how good of a defender he was because they were so used to watching Scottie lock up players.

 

Take away all of the rings and MVP awards, and Kobe is the better player.

 

So, let's put it this way: Michael Jordan is the greatest player to play the game. Kobe is the best overall player to play.

 

I have watched Jordan since 1990, and seen old games in the 80's...watched him more than any other player, really.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKgaeAoa-g

 

If you watch that, and compare the two games, you'll agree with me.

 

Spot on comparison. Couldn't have said it any better.

[Real Deal]

NITRO! What's going on, man? Good to see you back.

 

The only thing I want to point out is the passing. The turnovers that Kobe has had are mainly from him trying to split doubles, or drive into 2-3 players and utilize his spin moves (which was actually a big problem of his for a while). I rarely see Bryant throw a terrible pass. It does happen, of course, but not often.

 

And, with that said, neither did Jordan.

 

I just believe that Kobe's passes down low (off penetrating drives) separate him from Jordan. They were accurate and effective. Both find their shooters really well. I just don't take assists per game into consideration as much because, throughout the years, Jordan has had more competent teammates to convert those passes into assists than Bryant has. While Kobe did have Shaq, it was O'Neal that called for the ball down low, creating his own shot. Same with Gasol and Bynum. Jordan and Scottie had a plethora of dangerous shooters at their fingertips, and with Scottie doing what he could to set up MJ, it was Jordan that had the ball in his hands at the end of the clock, and that's what made him most dangerous, spreading the floor and doing what he wanted with guys that actually knew how to spread the floor with him.

 

LeBron James is an excellent passer, and his high assist numbers can be explained because he has Mo Williams, Delonte West, Anthony Parker, Daniel Gibson, and Jamario Moon all knocking down shots, one of the best shooting teams in the NBA, I believe.

[deestillballin]

No one will ever win 6 rings again in the NBA so if 6 rings is required to be on MJ's level, no one will be.

 

Ever heard of Robert Horry (sorry had to add that, continue on)

[Nitro]

I just believe that Kobe's passes down low (off penetrating drives) separate him from Jordan. They were accurate and effective. Both find their shooters really well. I just don't take assists per game into consideration as much because, throughout the years, Jordan has had more competent teammates to convert those passes into assists than Bryant has. While Kobe did have Shaq, it was O'Neal that called for the ball down low, creating his own shot. Same with Gasol and Bynum. Jordan and Scottie had a plethora of dangerous shooters at their fingertips, and with Scottie doing what he could to set up MJ, it was Jordan that had the ball in his hands at the end of the clock, and that's what made him most dangerous, spreading the floor and doing what he wanted with guys that actually knew how to spread the floor with him.

 

I disagree with that. When Jordan was putting up his big assist numbers and was given greater duty to be a facilitator, his team was offensively challenged. Pippen was still young and developing his jumper and overall game, and after that his only real offensive threat was Craig Hodges and a very young Horace Grant. His team was routinely in the bottom 10 of the league in PPG during the late '80's. When the Bulls finally had players that could shoot the ball and create their own shot, Jordan's assist numbers went down to what you're used to seeing from Kobe. And when Jordan was putting up those big assist numbers, the 3pt line was still a new comodity and it was a rarity to see a team with more than 1-2 players taking over 2 of them a game.

 

Another factor I forgot to mention in my first post regarding Jordan's passing was...his defense. When you are notching over 3SPG like he did the year he won DPOY, it also helps boost the assist totals. That is not to say he was necessarily a better passer in the raw sense than Kobe is on the fastbreak, but again, talent vs. effectiveness. At some point you have to say, "Ok, Kobe may be the more skilled passer, but over their careers, who was the more effective passer?" Both have had dynasty teams, both have had a few scrub teams, and both are the 2 most skilled players the game has ever seen with nearly identical height/weight measurements at the SG position...at that point it comes down to productivity IMO.

[Big Penny]

Kobe, err.. Real Deal still uses stats... It worked in 2004-2005 on JBB but not in today's era.

 

Kobe is the biggest [expletive] I've seen, he should have had 6 techs in Denver game but after 1 tech, the refs had to beg him not to go crazy because it'd mean throwing him out and they lost their jobs. When you block Kobe clean/ all ball, he'd throw his fists around wanting fouls... that's a [expletive]. Jordan is wayyy better than him.

 

MJ had charisma Kobe would never ever have... when MJ enters a room even today, he turns heads more than any athlete does except maybe Tiger Woods. When Kobe enters, it's just Kobe lol

lmao

 

you can't get 6 techs in one game for a start, so you're wrong. and if someone complains about fouls that makes them a bad player? in that case 90% of players in the NBA are terrible.

 

and charisma too? what does that have to do with basketball talent? even at some wierd Kobe-Hate gathering (you probably know alot about them) if he walked in and said "Sup?" everyone would acknowledge him.

[Real Deal]

lmao

 

you can't get 6 techs in one game for a start, so you're wrong. and if someone complains about fouls that makes them a bad player? in that case 90% of players in the NBA are terrible.

 

and charisma too? what does that have to do with basketball talent? even at some wierd Kobe-Hate gathering (you probably know alot about them) if he walked in and said "Sup?" everyone would acknowledge him.

Don't reply. He thought Denver was going to sweep us the last two times we played them in the Playoffs, and he brings up the Nuggets in every topic he posts in, so we kinda just look the other way.

[Multi-Billionaire]

lmao

 

you can't get 6 techs in one game for a start, so you're wrong. and if someone complains about fouls that makes them a bad player? in that case 90% of players in the NBA are terrible.

 

and charisma too? what does that have to do with basketball talent? even at some wierd Kobe-Hate gathering (you probably know alot about them) if he walked in and said "Sup?" everyone would acknowledge him.

 

Who said a player can get 6 techs dumbass?

 

 

We will annihilate you this year :-)

[Real Deal]

Who said a player can get 6 techs dumbass?

 

 

We will annihilate you this year :-)

Next time you mouth off to any of my members on this site, your IP is banned, and so is the entire range of IP's you can use, and I'll redirect all of your IP's to whatever site I choose. You're either going to be here and behave like a good little boy, or you're going to sit in the corner and never going to come out of it. Until you stop acting like a child, you can be treated like one.

[EastCoastNiner]

Oh, how things have changed in the past year.

 

I have said in the past year or two that Kobe Bryant was the BETTER player, but Michael Jordan so far, is the GREATER player, and everyone cried and complained that I was out of my mind, but now some of you are coming to your senses.

 

I defined being the best at something and being the greatest at something completely differently, and I think that Kobe Bryant is a better player than Michael Jordan was, but six championships is going to be viewed as pure greatness, which is why people don't put Kobe Bryant above Michael Jordan.

 

Kobe Bryant can still get that 6th Championship, and I also think that Michael Jordan and his influence on Nike has a lot to do with how people will most likely view him as the greatest player for a long, long time.

[EastCoastNiner]

Oh, how things have changed in the past year.

 

I have said in the past year or two that Kobe Bryant was the BETTER player, but Michael Jordan so far, is the GREATER player, and everyone cried and complained that I was out of my mind, but now some of you are coming to your senses.

 

I defined being the best at something and being the greatest at something completely differently, and I think that Kobe Bryant is a better player than Michael Jordan was, but six championships is going to be viewed as pure greatness, which is why people don't put Kobe Bryant above Michael Jordan.

 

Kobe Bryant can still get that 6th Championship, and I also think that Michael Jordan and his influence on Nike has a lot to do with how people will most likely view him as the greatest player for a long, long time.

 

I'm still wondering why some of you suddenly changed your mind from one year ago.

[Big Penny]

Who said a player can get 6 techs dumbass?

 

 

We will annihilate you this year :-)

"he should have had 6 techs in Denver game" yeah, who said a player could get 6 techs